PO Box 55045, Phoenix Az 85078-5045
Promoting Intimacy and Other-Centered Sexuality
COPYRIGHTED 1997-2003 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
Experiences Of Christians Dealing With Sexual/Poly/Swing Issues
Or Experiences of others relating to Christian repression
The purpose of Liberated Christians is not to just publish newsletters and have a nice web site. Our goal is to help real people, especially Christians deal with the issues. Sometimes sharing real experiences instead of theological or philosophical theories can be the best motivation and help to others. Therefore, we publish without any identifying information some of the hundreds of letters and E-mails we receive in hopes by sharing real life experiences of others it can help a wider range of people than just our "preaching" and teaching via newsletters and materials on the web site. We publish some letters that are very positive about us, not to gloat, but to help others realize that there are many Christians struggling with these issues and encourage you that other Christians are finding a great deal of relief when they realize the truth regarding biblical sexuality.
To protect privacy no identifying personal information or last names will ever be revealed unless permission is given.
March 2005 in response to reading this page shared with permission:
I found your website after another lonely Valentineís Day
this year. I was googling bible, sex, virginity, and then I found your site. I
read all the articles. I couldnít believe that I wasted my whole life being
I havenít even kissed one single girl to this day. That lie about premarital sex has greatly impacted my life. Now, Iím a 22 y/o virgin. It sucks, now even more because I know I believed a lie. I wrote a letter to my future wife on that Valentineís Day night. I was telling her how much I wanted her and how I hoped that she was keeping herself ďpureĒ and saving herself just for me. Itís painful to read that now.
2 weeks later, on the 28th, I wrote her a new letter telling her how I found this website, etc., and it has changed what I believed. I read the other letters on your website about virgins and their stories once they realized they were believing a lie the whole time. I felt so sorry for that 35 y/o virgin who said, ďGod never intended for me to be a 35 year old virgin.Ē That nearly broke my heart. And I can identify with the 19 y/o virgin who kept asking himself if he was to blame. Iíve noticed the guys that are virgins seem to have something lacking in their personalities. Itís real subtle, but you can tell that something is different, not in a good way.
Yeah, Iím that way, too. Once I start having a loving sexual relationship in my life, I will be healed. I really need that healing that only a sexual relationship with a woman can bring. And it doesnít even need to be sexual at this point; I just need one to hug, caress, and love and just have physical contact. I could have had so many girls. There was a really hot one at my church when I was growing up. I was too shy because I was afraid of being sexual or kissing her. That attitude toward sex really made me uptight, as if I wasnít uptight enough already. And there were several really pretty girls I could have had wonderful relationships with in high school. I didnít date them because I wanted a girl from my same church denomination, of which there were none. And I didnít want to date girls I wouldnít marry; I believed it was for my own good, because, after all, you marry who you date. I really wish I had known about this website.
I masturbated for my first time when I was 14 in 1996. For the longest time I felt guilty of it, like 3 years before I told my mom and she told me it was natural. Of course, if I were to tell her about what Iíve learned from this website, she probably wouldnít be so open-minded, but Iím 22 now, so itís my life.
Thanks so much for making this website. I had no idea that sex regardless of marital status was biblically sound. Iíve found out so many things that were lies in the last few months. The truth that comes from your website will definitely impact my live in a very good way. I canít wait to lose my virginity! I know I might not be your favorite person to hear from, but I wanted to open myself up and share my story to someone who would understand.
Glad to have found your site.
I was divorced at 30 and celibate for about 20 years until my son was grown and left home.
I then decided that I would explore my sexuality. I am a Pentecostal Christian and feel that I am born again and spirit filled.
I thought that I might be sinning and kept praying about it..........I decided to allow Jesus to be Lord over my sexuality as well.
I have slept with several guys before I met my current boyfriend. He thinks I'm whacked that I can be a Christian and swing with him.
I think he's whacked that he could be a deacon in his Baptist church, and still feel like he is a sinner going to hell because of his swinging.
Wow 4 "I" 's up there....oh well! Anyway, I appreciate your site because I think you are right. I have run into some really messed up preachers about sex...a lot of messed up Christian women too. I know that if my family knew what I was doing that I would probably be shunned as unrighteous. What I have done has been fun, done with consenting adults, and involved no idol worship. It promoted caring between people....problems with jealously have been discussed and have been used as a process to growth.
I don't think this lifestyle is for everybody. However, I no longer have to hide, afraid of my own strong sexuality...something God designed in me to use to reach out and love other people with. I love God more than anything and the freedom he gives us is intense....yet the other side of the coin is that it has to be balanced with caring and loving other people. Jesus gave us the most important commandment, to love God and love others as ourselves. I don't feel like a sinner.
But I also don't think I would be accepted at church if anyone knew....I think God wants to reach out to all those swingers, gays, bis, etc. and I think he wants them to know Him like I know him.....I don't hesitate to tell anyone what Jesus has done for me....however, non-Christians are as judgmental as Christians, so even this is a thin line to tread. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest!
I'm Bill Paris, cofounder of Liberated Christians. Dave forwarded your note to me.
You testimonial is one of the neatest, sanest and most enthusiastic I have ever seen, especially from a woman. May we have permission to post it on the web site for the benefit of others, especially women who struggle with these issues in ways that most men don't? We would remove your identifying particulars, although, if you would like to correspond with people, we could include them or you could post separately in our Introduce Yourself section.
You may certainly use my email....if anyone would like to correspond they could respond to my yahoo mailbox at email@example.com. I would like to keep any identifying data private simply because there are a lot of nuts out there.
I feel very strongly that God our Creator created sex to be a positive influence in our lives. Since sex has exploded from a private matter into our movie and tv screens, we can't push it back behind closed doors and bed sheets. People must know that God is concerned about all areas of our lives, and that He is not ashamed of our sexual needs. He wants all of us....He says so. He is, however, ashamed of our lack of love toward expressing kindness and goodness to our fellow human beings. I know I certainly fall short of the Glory of God and that I'm "working out my salvation with fear and trembling".....I would be glad to dialogue with anyone who has an open mind in this area.
Our Ideas Helping Non-Orgasmic Woman
Dave and Bill- A special thanks straight from my heart...I have always known that I am a very sexual female but I have always felt guilt because of it. I have had sex with many men that I love dearly and never once did I orgasm. For years I couldn't figure it out...I mean I LOVE making love...and it always felt good...but I could never climax. Then a friend of mine told me it could be triggered by the fact that deep in my heart I felt I was going to hell for having sex..therefore no orgasm... So you see you helped me soooo much...no longer do I feel that I am a sinner for being sexual with those I love! I know that I am just a human being and that I have nothing to feel guilty about!! I honestly believe that Christ has blessed us all by sending two such "angels" into our lives! THANKS! - Janet
Regarding Childhood Sexuality Report
A subscriber who regularly shares his "stream of conscience thoughts," which we appreciate writes, "It may be one of this decade's great ironies that society's failure to honestly treat sex may be a leading factor in the recent rash of sexual abuse charges not to mention teen pregnancies. If sex were treated as its basic instinct soul mate hunger and thus children received both theoretical and, at the appropriate degree of maturity, practical education, I submit the child would be sufficiently educated and self assured to thwart unwanted sex. Would the aunt or uncle or step-parent even be in a position to solicit undesired sexual response? The primary threat of 'If you tell I will harm you' would lose its power because the child would feel comfortable in going to its parent or guardian and discussing the matter openly, freely, and without embarrassment. I know one can carry the food analogy only so far, but if one accepts that both food and sex are the essence of survival of the species, how can society in good conscience indulge the one and suppress the other?"
Another writer said. "Please convey to Bill my VERY GREAT appreciation for his essay, The Cult of Childhood and the Repression of Childhood Sexuality! His essay has clarified my own thinking on the matters that he wrote about."
Regarding Our Intro Literature
From a woman hesitant to explore intimacy with another women and her husband. We've changed real names. Dave had been encouraging her to discuss her fantasy with her husband and sent her our literature:
"I just wanted to tell you that thanks to your literature, my husband has become very supportive of my feelings to enter into secondary sexual relationships. We talked the last two nights after he read your literature, and at first he was very objective in our discussions, but last night he became more passionate than I have ever seen him as we discussed Kathy and her husband. His lovemaking was more intense than I have ever felt as he urged me to invite her over...He only asked that I tell him about it and that I made love to her in our bed. Then he did something that really got me excited. He turned off the lights and told me to pretend that he was George. I had three orgasms before he finished and he told me afterwards that he now knew how much I needed to enjoy secondary love and told me he was sorry that we had not done this before."
Another: "Thanks so very much for your information. I simply can't adequately tell you how refreshing and inspiring and informative I found all of this material! It is so articulate in penetrating the narrow and bigoted and constrictive influence of the traditional churches on the normal and healthy freedoms for affection and sex that humans should be entitled to."
A sadder note to help us all realize how lucky we may
be and how important it is for all to have the opportunity for sexual fulfillment:
"Thanks for the information. While I agree with your views,
I would probably find myself out of place in your group: I am a disabled Christian
and my confinement to a wheelchair since childhood has consistently made me unwanted
socially and especially sexually. Please remove me from your mailing list."
Note: We aill soon have links to information specifically
dealing with sex for the disabled.
"I am a single man age 34, who has spent the last 20 years struggling with my own sexual feelings. I have been part of a church which taught that sexuality could only be expressed through marriage, but also taught that it was better to remain celibate like Paul and that any desire for intimacy from another person was an unhealthy 'codependency'. Consequently I started to view myself as both sinful and unhealthy and withdrew from others (especially women) because of the guilt and shame over my 'codependency', 'sexual obsession' and 'sinful' acts of masturbation. Finally I ended up leaving the church and have been isolated and even more lonely ever since.
Over the past year I have been reevaluating my beliefs and value systems. I have come to believe that only in intimate sexual relationships can I find the healing and wholeness God intends for me. God never intended for me to be a 34 year old virgin. I have also come to admit that sex and intimacy are what I really want, and I don't want anything to do with any kind of 'Christianity' which inhibits sexuality and intimacy."
But Not All Liked Our Nov. Reports......
"I think that being more open about discussing sex is a good thing. Celebrating deep throating and incest, though, is certainly not, and you are fooling yourself if you think that these practices, which primarily exist for men to hurt women, are part of a healthy sexuality. Did you know that since "Deep Throat" was made, women turn up in emergency rooms again and again, maimed, or dead of suffocation, as a result of throat sex? Are you oblivious to the epidemic of incest sweeping us today? Do you think that looking to primitive cultures for a model of sexual morality is really the right thing to do? Please remove me from your mailing list."
(Editor's note from Bill: This response is evidently both to the article on fellatio in the Nov.-Dec. newsletter and my special report on childhood sexuality. His allegation that we are "celebrating" deep throating and incest clearly indicates a serious overreaction to what we wrote. We appreciate and read with interest all responses, including the critical ones. It is not surprising to me that a number of people, both positive and negative respondents, have focused on the issue of child-adult sexual activity which was mentioned in my report. This is because such discussion is seriously taboo in our society, as clearly indicated in the report. What IS more surprising is that some people have responded as if that discussion was the central or only focus of the report. Of all things intended in the report, the least was any notion of "celebrating" or even recommending incestuous relationships of any sort. I would suggest that any reader who came to the report with even a modest objectivity would understand this. The fact that some did not is further evidence of the paranoia, fear and confusion that exits in our society about sexuality in general and about the notion that children are sexual beings with real sexual needs that should be addressed. As responses to my report accumulate, I plan to review them carefully and address in a future newsletter some of the comments people are making.)
(We get many requests on the Internet for our information from all over the world. Many from Britain, Australia and some from South Africa, Latin America, and even Slovenia. Now we received our first from Russia: "Greetings from St. Petersburg, Russia! I have read the Liberated Christians documents at the Society for Human Sexuality on the Net and found them very interesting. Please send me the informational kit." - Dennis, St. Petersburg Press
Regarding Christian Sexual Repression
"We have really enjoyed the info you have provided. Can't wait for your next newsletter. Your information has removed a lot of guilt from years of upbringing and helped us to understand more. I have often felt the information you provided was there, but didn't know where to go to find it... We have passed your info to several friends who have found it to be very liberating from years of repressive thinking and guilt."
You have put a whole new twist on my view of the Christian religion. It seemed that the religion was created just to tell us that sex is bad. All of my life I have rejected their rules and judgementalism. I did understand that I was really opposed to how those around me interpreted the bible more than what the bible actually said, but your positive loving view of Christianity makes it more than palatable for this left wing crusader. Now I can enjoy the Christmas seasons with all the gusto I have within me and not fear that I am not worthy of being a part of their church because of my sexuality applaud you for taking such a unique posture. It would be fun to listed to some of your conversations with the right wing fundamental Christians... Unfortunately the whole family values movement is a movement of isolationism. People are more and more fearful of each other. I believe that communities are the answer ...not just family
In Response to our Internet Post About Christian Intimacy
and Biblical Sexual Issues:
What a blessing you are..
I was on the net tonight...wrestling as Jacob did with the angel.. Torn between guilt and what I think should be.. I opened the newsgroup and found you.. Thank you...thank you...thank you
Being Christians and Active Lifestyle Participants
by Cathy & Kent
Though it's an apparent if not glaring contradiction to many of our friends and acquaintances both in the lifestyle and outside of it, we genuinely and sincerely consider ourselves large "C" Christians. This is despite our active involvement in the swinging lifestyle.
In fact, swinging activities, in our mind, bring us much closer to who and what we consider our God to be. The fact that we both at an early age accepted Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior did not mean we accepted other peoples' concept of what the Holy Trinity was, nor did we, nor do we, accept other self-labeled Christians' prejudices, personal hatreds and overbearing dislikes against other human beings simply because of class, race or sexual orientation and so forth, especially under the guise of religious differences. To us, to be a Christian is to love and accept all people for whom and what they are and as they are. Salvation, which can only come from divine love, must be precipitated by a unilateral acceptance of one's self for one's self, i.e. you must forgive yourself and accept yourself for who you truly are. This must occur before the vessel of your soul is ready to accept love and forgiveness.
Swinging to us is an expression of that love we feel for everyone. It is merely a physical expression of an existing emotional attachment or bond. There's no question of "adultery" in our minds since we feel that sin is rooted in betrayal, betrayal of one's God, one's society, one's family or one's mate. As long as there's no betrayal, there can be no sin. Love is expressed by truth. If something is rooted in truth it must be good. Betrayal, the root of all sin, is always an expression of non-truth and lies. The hurt of adultery does not come from the manifestation of love and joy as portrayed by the physical act of making love with someone else's mate, but rather from the betrayal of telling lies to one's mate in order to engage in adulterous behavior. As long as their is mutual agreement, knowledge, disclosure and constant communication in consensual non-monagamous activities, there is no betrayal of trust and therefore no sin.
Our personal relationship and marriage is based on unconditional love, acceptance and truth in all things. It is faith and commitment to our God and each other. We usually don't mention our faith but we feel a need to let the lifestyle community know that there are couples heavily involved in this lifestyle who are Christians. We and they are without self-contradiction or self-delusion because swinging is an expression of mutual faith and love.
North Carolina Christian Couple Would Like To Network
With Others says:
"What excites us most and gives us the most optimism is the hope of networking with and eventually meeting others we consider our "peer group," i.e. those who have high moral and ethical standards, and those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, combined with a non-shamed (but not prideful) embracing of a physically non-monogamous Life-style. If there is a local group (within 100 miles of the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area), please write us a short note back giving us a point of contact. If there isn't a local group, we would like to seek out any Liberated Christian affiliated group anywhere in North Carolina, South Carolina, or Virginia."
They have given permission to publish their names, and are the same Cathy and Kent whose article "Being Christians and Active Lifestyle Participants we have also published. Here is their personal ad:
MWC, she 44 and bi, he 39 and straight, spiritually and emotionally and sexually nurturing and caring people seek compatible couples and singles as friends and lovers. We love without limits the only boundaries being no male bisexuality, "real" pain or videos. Prefer to meet those within 100 miles of us. Cathy & Kent, POB 36070, Raleigh NC 27606-6070.
Texas Preacher's Kid & Wife Struggling With Lifestyle
Issues Seek Others
Dave, thanks so much for the newsletter and your and others writings! It has helped me immensely in my struggle with "Traditional Christianity" and the hard line hell fire and damnation upbringing of my youth.
I am a recovering Southern Baptist PK, (Preachers Kid), who struggled with the exclusiveness of monogamy from the first time that the girl I had a crush on in the sixth grade said, "I can't be your girlfriend because I am Doyle's girlfriend". My honest reaction was why can't you be girl friend to both of us.
Then there was all of the scripture of the Old Testament with men having multiple wives and sexual variety in their lives, and the double standard of that time that really bothered me.
When my first wife and I got into swinging in the early seventies, we both suffered much guilt and dropped out of church because we couldn't be "swingers" and Christians too! What a crock of shit.
We made some really close friends in the swinging community. In fact four couples developed our relationship into one very close to a group marriage.
When the pressures of family and friends "to get back in church," and guilt they heaped upon us for not being in church and doing the Lords work, became too much we went back to church and turned our backs on our poly family.
The pressures to stay away from those we loved, the guilt of constantly being drawn towards these couples we had such deep feeling for and the guilt we felt when we had sex with them and even exchanged hugs, tore us and our marriage apart.
Now after a second failed marriage, [wife] and I, (both twice before married), are making a wonderful life together, one based on openness and truth and honesty, and open to polyfidelity and the concepts of responsible non-monogamy.
[Wife] has realized this since meeting me, and has started to change her mind about some of the teachings of her past (Catholic).
The information you have sent us has been so refreshing and welcome that we have already started to translate it into Spanish so that we might share it with like-minded close friends. Yes, in your next bulletin please mention we are here in Panama City, Panama, for any passerby or close-by friends. You have our authorization to print our postal address (Virgil & Mary, 6-4019 El Dorado, Panama City, Panama). We will be honored to translate any of the articles into Spanish. My fiancee and I are Catholics and congratulate you on our courage. We are confident this will be a better world, like God intended it in the first place, if we all do what we feel is right and good to ourselves and for others. No matter what we have been taught. Good luck and thanks for all good you are bringing to many people's lives.
No, You Are Not Alone in Your Feelings Of Sexuality As
Public post on internet alt.christnet.nudism, Subject: liberated Christians, 13Aug 1996:
I have recently discovered the liberated Christian movement. What a joy for my wife and I to realize we are not alone in believing that God gave us sexuality as a means of expressing love, experiencing joy and pleasure, and not as a way to torture us with guilt and repression!
The liberated Christian movement has reexamined the scriptures in the original languages and cultural context and provides insight into how the faith was hijacked by sex-phobic hypocrites...here's the good news: responsible, open non-monogamy, premarital sex, nudity, etc. are NOT SINFUL. Love is the only law. Let's reclaim the faith!!
We have also exchanged E-mail with both spouses of this couple who are sending our material to anyone interested. They are also interested in communications with other couples and she says:
"We are so glad you guys are doing this work, as it has been very difficult dealing with our lifestyle in a small (Canadian) town. We will be very pleased to have correspondence from any of your members. We are still working on how to manage our "playing" with that of family, children, friends, etc. and always having to think about what people will think or say about us. (Husband) says I am expecting the "villagers with pitchforks and torches" on our front lawn, like some Frankenstein movie, but even he agrees that we are in a kind of fishbowl, living in such a small community.
You talked about women being less than enthusiastic participants in the extramarital fun, I just want to say that I have been, if anything, the instigator in our relationship, encouraging rather than avoiding new experiences. Of course, I enjoy the extra woman in our bed as much as (husband) does, and I find these threesomes to be especially satisfying because (husband) is a cuddler, and we seem to attract cuddly gals!
It's really as much about sharing the incredible warmth and closeness we enjoy together than it is about sex, and we do seem to have a good effect of people's lives who we become intimate with. They seem to have better luck at love as the result!
We certainly feel more comfortable in our relationship with God since studying your material, and since we stopped attending church, ironically. We still worry about how other Christian friends would react if they really knew us, but I guess that should really be their concern, not ours. (Husband) worries that the CMA (Christian Motorcycle Association) would ask him to turn in his colours...
Thanks again.... (Husband) says he sees other people talking about these ideas on the 'net all the time, and that freer Christians thought will spread more rapidly because of the 'net.
Update note from above couple October 12, 1996:
"hi Dave... just wanted to write you a quick note to let you know how we have been doing.
Your incredible ministry continues to have a very positive effect in our lives... thank you again!!! we have been sharing your ideas and material with Christian and non-Christian friends alike, gradually becoming more courageous in talking to people about our beliefs... and the response has been very positive.
One recent breakthrough was a long discussion we had with the president of our local Christian Motorcycle Association, with whom we really wanted to establish some openness, not wanting to be involved in the group without them, or at least the leadership really understanding our perspective on the faith... he was very positive and supportive... what a great blessing!!!!
Thanks SO MUCH for introducing us to John and Nancy from California... we have been carrying on a delightful (and quite spicy!!) correspondence with them... they seem to be enjoying the contact as well, although they are not as isolated from other sex-positive people as we are.
We have become much freer and more secure in our lifestyle choices since we began this journey...and I have been cruising the newsgroups looking for people asking the same questions I was asking, then offering them some answers... always in the form of my own opinions, backed up with an offer to provide insightful material (our intro material) if they request it.
I really feel that this has become a ministry for us, both on the net and in our personal contact with people... already we have seen people whose discomfort over sexual issues was keeping them from seeking God suddenly realize that He loves them and wants them to be happy and free.
Thanks again for your dedication to this ministry... oh.. almost forgot.. did you happen to see the article in last months Cosmopolitan? They have a feature called "on my mind" which is a kind of freelance opinion feature, and there was a great article called "would Christ have joined the Jesus coalition?" ... this was really excellent and proved that a new, freer and more loving Christianity is rapidly expanding into the mainstream.. the work you and other are doing is going to change the faith... I can feel it... God bless you
Sex No Longer Dirty For A Christian Young Women From Holland
A public Internet Post:
When everyone reacted so positively on my post about orgasms as religious experiences, I've been doing some serious thinking and praying. Many Christians agree that in Christianity sex has been considered dirty and sinful, but that this is wrong. Sometimes the view of sexuality as something sinful was based on mistranslations of the Scriptures (I won't go into that, but who's interested in more information can E-mail me personally) and sometimes the old-fashioned view of Augustine (a doctor of the church) is still preached: sex is only good for procreation.
I was taught to believe that sex was something disgusting, but very early in life I discovered my body, just like every girl does. I became increasingly aware of my own sexuality and of male bodies. My puritan mother wanted nothing to do with sex, so I had to hide my own feelings, being able only to explore my body in the privacy of the bathroom or in bed. But looking back on my childhood experiences I now realize they were not only my first sexual experiences, but religious, too. I was taught to feel guilty of masturbation, but I had never felt closer to God than in those private moments right after my orgasm. I said childish prayers right before and after masturbating.
My attitude changed when I became engaged to a boy from church. I was only eighteen years old (I'm now twenty-four years of age) and completely inexperienced. In my home-country, Hungary, early engagement is very common and we were expected to marry after our graduation from secondary school. Ferenc, my fiance, was a nice looking boy from a respectable family and his parents had succeeded in setting up a prospering business despite communism. Everything looked great, but I was terrified by his sexual behaviour: after our engagement he told me it was okay if we had sex, but I said I wanted to wait. He practically forced himself upon me, but I managed to get away. After that he did not want to have intercourse, but he forced me to make him come with the help of my hand and later my mouth. I experienced nothing at all and I guessed that sexuality was only for men, not women. His erect cock frightened and disgusted me. I felt dirty.
Now I realize this was not because I thought it was sinful or anything like that, but because he showed no interest in my pleasure. When touching me, he touched me in a rough way. I broke up with him after he slapped me in the face when I did not let him come in my mouth. For a year the entire male sex was disgusting for me. I paid no attention to boys at all, lived like a nun in every respect. I worked in a hotel in Amsterdam for a while and in the bus back to Budapest I met a fine young man. When I got to know him I noticed how eager he was to please me. He touched me with a tender, loving touch, and my pleasure was double pleasure for him. He did not rush me into having sex, although I 'gave myself to him' almost immediately, long before marriage was even discussed. In my mind I married him the moment I laid eyes on him, no priest, no rabbi, just him and me. Before making love, we both prayed in our own mother-tongues, while touching each other. While he ran his fingers through my hair, he praised the Lord for creating me, and that, however childish it may sound, made me cry. He was a gift from God for me, but he thought I was a gift from God for him. It was both, in our experience. For the first time since my very early childhood I felt no guilt for being excited, for feeling the desire to be touched, held and entered. I thought I would never experience a thing like that. I thought I would never touch an erect cock with my hands, let alone my lips, after Ferenc, but when I touched the boy whom I considered to be my husband already, I completely forgot all about my bad experiences. Taking a penis in my mouth was not something unspeakably disgusting to me anymore, but a blessing, since he had made me feel how it is when lips touch my vagina. Before he came he asked permission to come in my mouth and I was so moved, since the last time I had done this I had been slapped in the face for not letting the man come in my mouth. When I felt him come, I felt a Divine Presence in my life, I felt he had given me a gift.
I talked with him about God and His Plan for all of us and he showed me there was so much pleasure in sex that it must be part, and an important part too, of God's Plan. After that, my excitement has known no bounds and I've even masturbated in front of him, something I thought I would never do.
After this I have been praying often for better and deeper experiences and God has provided. We are not only spiritually, but legally married now, too. I felt a long time that I had to share this and I know many Christians will be offended by my language, but I will ignore or try to ignore the flames and hope there is a girl out there, reading this, wondering why she has never experienced God in her sexuality and why she feels so guilty. Anyone who wants to is free to E-mail me personally again and I will pray for everyone, even the people who send flames, for there is a wonderful thing inside all of us which can bring us so much closer to God. He wants to have a relationship with all of you, also through our bodies.
Bill's Response to above:
"Your story is indeed a remarkable and beautiful one to read and reveals so clearly how God has given us the gift of our sexuality and wishes us to enjoy it fully and to honor him as we do." In addition Bill has shared more with Alicia, who enthusiastically gave us permission to publish her letter, including her E-mail address.
Another Christian Who Thought They Were Alone
You are a Godsend to me...literally! My wife and I are believers...We definitely cannot fit in with conventional Christian churches, because we are too free..she is bi and we both love amorous adventures... We don't believe it is a sin in our lifestyle, or that God meant for us to suppress the exuberant, joyful and mutually satisfying sexuality He gave us...please give us more information. We need to be validated and know we are not alone in this view of God and religion. Thanks
So California "Lifestyle Friendly" Therapist
A Lifestyle friendly therapist has written Liberated Christians, offering to write articles as well as being available to those individuals seeking assistance in their relationships, but who do not want to have to deal with the hasty conclusion, by a therapist, that their "alternative" lifestyle is the reason for all their problems. Due to his community activities, he prefers to be somewhat discrete. But if you are interested in a professional therapist, contact Liberated Christians and we will give you his phone number. He has extensive experience as a licensed Marriage, Family and Child Counselor and has a private practice in Southern California. In addition, he is a university professor of psychology and human development and a leader in a traditional Christian Church. One of his many interests is encouraging formation of healthy groups as opposed to just any groups. We look forward to his sharing some ideas with us in the future. Perhaps, we can have him as a guest speaker sometime for our Phoenix Fellowship Group.
Response To ideas about HIV
" I just wanted to send you a note of thanks for putting the impact of hiv on hetero-males into perspective for me. Raised very Catholic, I have spent years in agony worrying that a single encounter with a female co-worker in 1988 would result in a terrible punishment from God. Other than my wife, this was my only partner in the last 18 years. I remember a TV show that portrayed a boy getting hiv while losing his virginity, which would be pretty close to my situation. I actually contemplated suicide." (We get many letters about the terrible problems and wasted worry that Catholic or other religious guilt brings.)
But....Some React With Fear:
"Thanks for sending the sample of your internet newsletter. I'm afraid it's waaaaaaaay too explicit for me. I get so scared reading it! Besides, the first thing I read about is infidelity - a defense of it from supposedly biblical grounds. It's too incredible to believe. Please, PLEASE unsubscribe me immediately!!"
Christians With A Clue! What A Mind-Blowing Concept!
Thanks for the post, Dave...that is fascinating!!! It is amazing to find Christians who actually have the courage to rise above the flaws of the Bible...to recognize that what went on in biblical times was hardly Christ-like and that the laws that were necessary then are not anymore. I'm forwarding your material to a few friends, including to a Pagan network...to prove to the more fundy-phobic ones that not all Christians are narrow-minded sex-obsessed bigots."
"Back in Touch With Christianity
"I am very interested in your newsletter and the message you have. I think I have been looking for you for a long, long time. Maybe your message can put me back in touch with Christianity."
From our Friends in the U.K.:
"Thanks for sending the information as requested. My wife and I are delighted to find there are other Christians in the world who feel as we do. We'll be talking a lot about what we have read I am sure...Why is it that all the groups that one would feel like joining are based in the USA?
Basically, we would both love to attend one of the meetings you describe, but would not know how to go about finding such in England. In fact, I very much doubt that there is one. If you think America is repressed, you should try living over here with the legacy of Victorian "morals" and double standards."
Another "Help" Letter:
"Dave, as a committed Christian I often find myself guilt ridden by my sexual fantasies. My husband is a wonderful, normal human being. But I am driven by a huge urge to fuck everything that walks. Can you help me?"
" Your material has proven invaluable to me and I thank you heartily. This is causing quite a shift in established thought. A preacher friend admitted that your ideas are correct; however doctrine doesn't allow such unconventional thinking."
A struggling Christian
"I recently ran across some information about your group on the Internet. I am fascinated. I have struggled with my sexual identity in the context of Christianity my whole life. It has been a constant source of guilt and pain. In fact, I am at the moment essentially no longer willing to call myself a Christian. I have serious doubts about it's legitimacy, in spite of the fact I grew up in a Christian home, I went to a Christian college, and even worked for my church for four years until a year ago.
I never have been able to live within the sexual mandates of the church. I love sex even though I have not had sex for two years now. My marriage has just fallen apart over this whole issue. My wife thinks I am a sex addict, as does the church who fired me and the counselor we were seeing. My wife was just about my opposite. She is deeply into the whole Christian experience and as indifferent to sex as much as I like it. That was always a source of conflict and led me to visit prostitutes in the early 80's on several occasions. I also masturbated regularly and used pornography as an outlet. Needless to say this all added up to my losing my marriage, job and church.
After a year of separation, I have come to believe I have a healthy sexuality. I am not going to put myself at needless risk in this day and age but I no longer feel guilty for enjoying sex. I look forward to the day when I can enjoy sex with another person (or persons) again."
Another frustrated Christian:
"All I can say is, FINALLY, someone has had the courage to step forth and voice what so many of us Christians have been secretly thinking for so long, if the truth were to be told... I have to admit that we are some of those Christian 'closet swingers' who have to deal with so much guilt and shame each time we give in to our human urges and seek pleasure in unconventional ways.
I only wish I had known about your organization before now. The guilt and shame I referenced may have already wrought its destruction in our marriage. My wife and I are both unusually oversexed but with her very prim and proper upbringing, and our involvement in our church, she has been unable to reconcile her human passions with her spiritual beliefs. Perhaps your organization may have material I can put in her hands that would help her to realize not only that these passions are not necessarily unchristian, but that we aren't the only ones who have these passions and find orgasmic pleasures are not confined to marriage.
I would further covet your prayers that our marriage may survive this test and that my wife may reconcile herself to a less rigorous belief system. Hopefully your information will help.
Please accept this letter too as my enthusiastic support for your endeavors and beliefs as I applaud your courage and honestly."
And yet another hurting Christian virgin:
"I'm a single male, still a virgin, brought up in a strict Christian home - taught that sex was only for marriage and only for procreation. I have many sexual feelings, but cannot express them, because I'm too inhibited. It hurts. I want and need to feel the physical love and pleasure a woman can provide, but feel like that part of me has been amputated. I can't even 'hit' on a woman, because of my upbringing. I've often resigned myself to accepting that I'll die a virgin.
Funny thing is, I'm quite an attractive person, very fit with a great body and well endowed. I think women shy away from me because they expect such a 'macho' looking guy would of course make the first move on a woman. But, I can't, and so nothing happens, and I even feel women find me unattractive because none will approach me to initiate a relationship."
A Bible-thumper becoming more open:
"I was on Prodigy a few years ago, and I read many of your posts especially in the religious concourse. At the time I was a bible-thumping, stubborn, opinionated fundamentalist brat who enjoyed posting bigoted remarks anywhere I could (that I was only about 19 didn't seem to matter). Back then, I thought you were just wrong. Now I've cooled off and I'm evaluating everything, and willing to listen to anything.
I wonder if anything can be done for me. I'm the type who can do complex processes on my computer all day and sincerely call it pleasure, and I basically have no life outside of computer processes. But recently I have felt a need for companionship that I don't understand too well."
Dave: Yes, I remember him for his attacks on Prodigy. Great to see he is becoming more open and perhaps the realities of needing companionship are mellowing him. Many of the most outspoken bible-thumpers eventually do question their fanaticism.
From sincere seeker trying to integrate sexuality and spirituality:
(Pardon long quotes but he makes many good points
about the search many make and the differing paths including rejection of Christianity
for the wrong reasons. While long, there is a great deal of wisdom and useful ideas
in this letter):
"I am writing to express an interest in your organization and the sex positive religious movement in this country. I find myself sharing many of your attitudes and opinions about this subject and would really like to find out more.
For much of my adult like I was a sort of de facto atheist. The major reason for this was, I believe, because of my rejection of institutionalized religion for a number of reasons. In recent years, however, I have experienced a new interest in spiritual matters and have come to realize that doctrinaire atheism can be just as unsavory as fanatic fundamentalism. I have renewed my interest in religion and theology. I feel a yearning to enhance the spiritual aspects of my life.
In spite of my rejuvenated interests in god, spirit and religion, I have not changed in my attitudes towards sexuality. If anything, I have continually grown in what I like to think of as a liberated sexual sensibility. At 38, the raging hormones of youth subsided somewhat and my philosophy of life both more sophisticated and sedate, I feel that a mature attitude towards sexuality is one that takes us beyond the painful adolescent jealousies and petty manipulations that seem to inundate so much of our culture.
I do not believe that humans are essentially monogamous sexually, but that does not mean that a couple cannot make a lifetime commitment work. Although I am a man, I find myself leaning towards a "women-centered" view of sexuality, something that I believe is somewhat necessary for sexual liberation in a patriarchal society.
In sum, I am interested in exploring the possibilities of a positive relationship between sex and religion. Some might direct me towards one of the many neo-pagan sects currently gaining in popularity. But I truly believe that Christianity, properly understood, is not so anti-sex as the televangelists would have us believe. Nor do I think that Christianity and so-called pagan beliefs are mutually exclusive."
After receiving our newsletter and other information he replied again:
"Thanks so much for you newsletter! I've known so many young, devout Christians who, upon their sexual awakening, have been filled with so much guilt and remorse, as if their very nature as sexual beings was something to be ashamed of. I've seen so many turn away from the church, or any spiritual life because they were so turned off by the false teachings of "mainstream" theologians concerning human relationships. Let's face it, the "Sexual Revolution" hasn't happened yet, but only had a few ill-fated starts, unfortunately because it sought to reject all religion and religious experiences or simply embraced a thoughtless, hedonistic approach to sexuality.
What true sexual liberation requires is a movement like yours that stresses intimacy and the ethically, spiritually and morally positive aspects of a spiritually-based, open attitude towards sex and human relationships. I have a great deal of respect for all of the worlds great religions but we don't need to turn to belief systems outside our own culture. In fact, I have been privately preaching many of the same points that your organization makes for many years, notably the fact that neither the Bible nor all ancient or modern Christian doctrines insist on only one particular type of legitimate sexual relationship. To do so is to hamstring our most basic needs and desires.
Sorry to go on a bit but it's so seldom that I come across individuals who think like we do on this subject, or at least are willing to admit it!! As one who is already known as being outspoken and somewhat opinionated, but nevertheless respected by my friends and peers, I will continue to do all that I can to spread the word, not to proselytize but to inform. I look forward to being a part of your organization, always in spirit and perhaps in person eventually.
As to this last point, my wife agrees with me completely concerning sex and human relationships and we have been "open" for over seven years now. We have discussed joining an organization like yours and taking part in its activities for some time now. One of our concerns is that we may not like the "culture" of traditional swingers organizations. Raw sex for pleasure is fine at times, but I like the Liberated Christians' emphasis on intimacy and friendship. What I'm afraid of is that my wife will be turned off by the religious implications of belonging to a group with this rubric. She is not an atheist by any means, but has never lived in a Christian environment and tends to reject much of what Christians believe. Any suggestions about this would be helpful.