Liberated Christians
PO Box 55045, Phoenix Az 85078-5045

Promoting Intimacy and Other-Centered Sexuality


"More Fulfilling Swinging thru Intimacy" Swing Convention Presentation

Welcome I'm Dave co-founder of Liberated Christians. If you aren't Christian don't be scared away by our name, what I share relates to everyone. We won't do any baptisms, speaking in tongues or pass an offering plate. But I will do a 20 minute sermon sharing ideas on intimacy in swinging based on experiences with our group in Phoenix. We should have time at the end for any questions, or for you to share additional ideas. I tend to talk fast since I have lots to cover but slow me down if I get carried away. I also try to have my brain engaged before putting my mouth in gear but by gears sometime slip a bit.

If you attended my previous session "Overcoming Guilt and Jealousy" hopefully you can overcome those issues and move on to seek more fulfilling intimacy in swinging.

One of the prime goals of Liberated Christians is to explore ideas about more intimacy in both our own relationships and with others. Like many men, I used to only think of sex when I thought of intimacy.

But in the mid 1980's I attended many Stan Dale "Sex, Love and Intimacy" workshops in Calif., where I learned and experienced the group dynamics of true love, intimacy and fulfilling sexuality far beyond just thrusting intercourse. While these groups were often closer to New Age type beliefs, I saw more Christlike love than what I had ever experienced in the traditional church. Too often the church is too busy reaching UP to God to reach OUT to each other. There are more people in the world starving for love and affection than starving for food, but when it comes to meaningful intimate interaction, the church is too often "God's Frozen People."

In my childhood I was very shy and still am in some ways, especially in approaching women. Growing up, I was scared of women and didn't date till I was a senior in college. I never went to a dance. But gradually I became more outgoing and married. But 16 years ago, after being resingled, I was insecure and depressed. Many women reacted negatively to me, sensing neediness and insecurity. But slowly, over time, after attending many Stan Dale, Sex, Love and Intimacy workshops, some sex surrogacy training, Esalen massage training and lots of G-spot massage experience I found women strangely attracted to me...especially once they started to experience my touch. For many year I thought all men were naturally, wonderfully intimate and I was just far behind. But so many women started telling me they had seldom experienced men with good touch and intimacy skills and I began to wonder why.

I have concluded that many men want to be intimate but haven't learned how.

One example is the experience I had a few years ago with a couple where I'm in bed with the wife and the husband is observing really wanting to learn to be more intimate. All of a sudden the wife says "See honey, foreplay is more than ready.... brace." He laughed and agreed he had never learned intimacy but wanted to.

Another example was when a couple had me do Esalen massage on the women. After a while the man came upstairs to my massage room, to see how we were doing and got all turned on seeing his nude girlfriend on the table. He jumped in wanting to poke her and be sexual with her. As he was poking and groping her body parts he asked how things were going. She replied "Great until you came up". Sometimes honest communications can be embarrassing but he did get the message that at that time she wanted the intimacy of massage not poking and groping.

Another example, Sue (not her real name) is a wonderfully warm, sensitive woman from Phoenix. Sadly, she has been sexually abused by just about every man who has been in her life. I enjoyed lots of wonderful intimacy with her, but we never had intercourse. Sadly, she said I was the first man who was interested in pleasing her instead of her just being a sexual receptacle for his own pleasure. She describes herself as a flower in the desert that hasn't been physically watered for a long time, but craves good touch and nonsexual intimacy. She is now looking for a man to fulfill her dream of building a cabin in the mountains of Montana to be alone with nature. She is typical of many women I've met that are starved for affection and real intimacy but often settle for just sex or sadly, like Sue, are turned off sexually because of bad experiences.

Many of you men and probably most of you women, are perhaps much better in intimacy skills than I am. Some of you will have no interest in my type of intimacy.

But, I will share some of my ideas and experiences not to brag but just share in hopes that something might be helpful. I apologize that I will be speaking from only a man's prospective being intimate with women, (since that's what I am). I welcome women to share from their perspective also.

Some folks are really seeking more in terms of relationships and intimacy than traditional swing clubs offer, but don't know how to find it or how to find like minded couples. They are tired of the typical swing scene and are more interested in what is between the ears and in one's heart, than just what is between the legs.

There are many in traditional swinging where intimacy is much too threatening and they only seek more impersonal sex or exhibitionism. For example, one women in her 20s who attended an intro was very comfortable being an exhibitionist by swinging nude from the pole at Phoenix swing club, but she couldn't imagine being so open in a group where people may really care about each other. We were able to help her with some deep seeded Catholic Christian guilt issues but she was not interested in our groups activities. Many couples, say in their 20s like our ideas but are still burning off their hormones and the typical swing club is more interesting for them.

For some, intimacy is much more scary than having sex with strangers. For example, we had a man who had to leave one meeting since he had such a hard time looking women in the eyes as part of our hug circle. For others we may be too Christian for them and for still others we may not be Christian enough. Likewise some of our parties may be too wild for some and too tame for others.

So what is intimacy? There are at least four different types. Intellectual, emotional, spiritual and physical. The first three types are developed over a longer time period based on open honest communications and really getting to know the other person. For many people they can't express physical intimacy without having at least some other levels first. Sometimes I wonder however, if the issue isn't the need for trust first to enjoy physical intimacy. I can be physically intimate (which doesn't have to be sexual) with a women I've just met if they are open, without first having to have the other levels.

In our culture women have been taught not to trust men's touch until they know them well enough to trust them. Men have been taught not to be too forward with touch. So the really sincere good touch man often is too inhibited out of fear his touch will be misunderstood and that leaves the drunken slob or the too aggressive men who only want sexual touch that are bold enough to touch women - but with the wrong kind of touch which turns off many women.

Today I'm going to be discussing mostly physical intimacy. But for many people the other types are even more important. Also I define intimacy as separate and different from what I call sexual pleasure sharing or more simply "sex". I've been at swing conventions in orgy rooms with lots of sex going on but little of what I perceive as intimacy. Our goal is to share ideas on more intimate relating for those that might be interested.

To me loving physical intimacy comes from the heart and the hands. It's also tied to the concept of universal love. I can "love" as another human spirit a person I've just met. I can interact with the emotions and soul by loving touch. If the women desires to also share sexual pleasure of course, I enjoy that also. But I see intimacy and sex as different but can be wonderfully combined. So to me physical intimacy is simply sincere loving touch which can take many different forms.

One women shared her feelings with me saying: "I do actually enjoy touching in a non-sexual way, it's 'being' touched that I have trouble with. I think it might be just a lot of conditioning, i.e. being touched before sex is foreplay, being touched after sex is intimacy." Her comment shows the problem we have that thinking of touch as having to be just foreplay for sex. It certainly can be but doesn't have to be. Loving touch can be just enjoyed for its own sake. The real intimacy for her was being touched after sex instead of the guy just rolling over and falling asleep!

By the way...There is certainly nothing wrong with sexual groping, grabbing, twisting, sucking, licking and thrusting. But to me that is not intimacy its "sex". But sex can be combined with physical intimacy and be both pleasurable as well as emotional fulfilling.

We know that learning to share intimacy, especially in a group setting, is difficult. The Stan Dale Workshops work very well but some who attend their ongoing monthly gatherings tell me the later meetings tend to be more of a social, talking event than a continuation of the so called "room of love" that is created at the Workshops. It seems we often need some structured activities to be intimate, at least in a group.

One person I've met in the lifestyle that really seems to have tried to make this happen is Nancy, founder of Club Sensitivity Seminars which for 12 years offered seminars on swinging before her husband died and a local preacher got their group closed. Nancy and I share many ideas on intimacy but often have the same frustrations. We've been exchanging letters for a few years. Nancy with her new husband Doug have founded Anakosha and the Sanctuary and host swing parties again.

Instead of sharing more of my personal stories about intimacy, I'm going to share Nancy's ideas since she has so many more years of experience and as a women expresses what many women feel. She says,

"To encourage sincerity and love would do a world of good for a lot of people. Sex without love, or at least some form of affection, is hard to handle. Hugging just a little bit longer, and stroking with just a little more meaning behind it, as though we really cared for them as people, not just as sex objects, would greatly enhance the depth of pleasure and prolong the feeling of arousal. We all need some emotional healing time.

Awesome things happen sexually when loving behavior is integrated into the sex act, both at home and in the lifestyle. Yes, I know. A lot of people are afraid of it, especially men. That's why it's been cut out of lifestyle parties. Men feel awkward with it but the behavior can be learned. They are learning. I know men who have changed dramatically.

Now that we've learned how to have sex with the many others, it is time to go to the next level and learn how to love the many others.

We understand that most men don't want to do it that way, and since the lifestyle is overly male in its approach we have goal oriented parties with sex as the focus, not love or affection or extended foreplay. If women were in charge, parties would be different. But Lifestyle parties really do overlook the need for emotional comfort and the fact that most people would prefer, if they had their 'druthers, to "grow" into someone's space rather than be rushed, pushed or pulled into it.

Nancy continues, I have talked with a number of men whose wives have quit attending parties. The husband blames menopause and thinks she is losing interest in sex. But in my discussions with some of these women I find that they are not losing interest in sex as much as they are increasing their need for affection and not getting it at the parties. They want to be held and loved more before sex is thrust upon them. They want to feel as if they are wanted and appreciated as a person and not a sex object. They want to be physically stroked, massaged, kissed, embraced and caressed for longer periods of time in extended foreplay. A lady told Doug & me that she was coming away from parties feeling "empty", that immediately upon arrival men were groping.

Well, not everybody wants love in their swing life and that's okay. Not all women do, either, and that's all right.

"I'm starting off each party with an invitation to join me in a massage in the mediation-turned-group room. This has been working quite well" She then jokes about too much social conversation going on saying, "I really do believe people talk too much. They would have a lot more fun if they stopped talking and started stroking." (I very much relate to that since I tend to sometimes communicate love for a person better with my hands than my mouth).

Any of you know Nancy ?
A couple months ago in Daytona Beach I shared this same presentation at the Reflections convention. Nancy, Doug and I sort of hosted a more intimate orgy room on the same floor as the official conference orgy room. We had some very good experiences. Those who may know them realize Doug has some different but complimentary interests which worked out very well.

Many women also tell me the same thing as Nancy so well expressed and some are amazed what is possible, when they share more intimately. I'm certainly nothing special and many men here I'm sure are much better at loving intimacy than I am, but women keep telling me they so much want more good loving touch intimacy not JUST great physical sex and orgasms. But many men don't understand this desire of many women. But many other men do want this once they are exposed to the ideas.

So what is this magic that so many women want but only a few men seem to know how to give? Its almost too simple to explain. Its simply loving nurturing touch which so many women want more than just sex. Its simply the right kind of touch and knowing how to touch and where to touch in loving intimate ways. It is not about groping sexual touch. Foreplay can be full of great intimate touch instead of "Ready - Brace". While having sex it's different ways of holding her or positions that are much more intimate than just the typical spread her legs and get it in and thrust type of typical sex.

Even in our groups intimate hug circle, despite all our direction about intimacy not sexual groping, in the past, women have told us that some men just insist on being too sexual. They have not learned that sexual touch is much different than intimate touch. Many men find enjoyment when they learn intimacy, but others will never enjoy anything but sexual touch. And some women don't want intimacy either but just sex. Some men and women need to break barriers to intimacy but when they do, they often they find their sexuality much more fulfilling.

At Liberated Christians we don't want to push people too hard into either intimacy or sex but hopefully by sharing ideas some will want to explore more intimacy. Others of you have always enjoyed it.

At the Visions 96 Convention in Florida I had another experience of a women's response to intimacy. A wonderful couple attended the convention after sharing E-mails and they wanted to meet me. We had a very great time together and enjoyed many hours of great intimate, sensual, sexuality in a threesome. The husband and I worked together beautifully sharing with his wife. On the last night they met some other couples who just wanted to share with them as a couple and they spent many hours together in their room. I had to get up at 6 am to catch my flight and I went to bed. Then at 3 am some dope opened the water flow value in a stairwell and the fire alarm went off! Most everyone left their rooms and went to the lobby until the all clear was given. As I was going back to my room the wife I had shared so much earlier with came running up to me. I thought something was terribly wrong. She said she just wanted to be with me and be held. She seemed very upset but I sensed that she didn't want to be quizzed on what was wrong. I feared she had some terrible fight with her husband. We just cuddled in bed for a long time. Finally I started trying to ask what the problem was, since I was concerned that her husband knew where she was. It turned out she had had lots of groping, poking, oral sex etc. but simply was tired of all the sex and just wanted some intimacy. Being concerned about the husband I called his room but no answer. Turned out he was in the hall searching for her but sort of thought she might have come to me. But he had no idea there was any problem. Finally I connected with him and he came in. Of course the first thing he wanted to know was "what happened". I sensed she didn't really want to go into a long explanation so I told him everything was all right and no, she wasn't mad at him or anything, just wanted some intimacy. He was wonderful about it and we all laid together and also enjoyed some sex, which she liked when it was also more intimate. At a not ideal alarm goes off...startling us all. 6 am had to get ready to leave. I didn't get any sleep that night, but very much enjoyed the experience. And, I do sleep quite well on airplanes!

We have developed a number of resources to try and share ideas on intimacy.

1) We discussed it at our required 3 hour intro meeting. We also have a intimacy meeting where we talk about it more, have some group discussion and introduce what we call an intimate (but non-sexual) hug circle. Our hug circle involves such things as looking in each person's eyes, holding hands, a caressing hug, face stroke for 50 seconds with every other person of the opposite sex. At first many people find 50 seconds embarrassingly too long to be intimate with a person they may have just met. But after they survive the experience, most say that the 50 seconds is really too short and they want to share more time with various people, which we of course encourage them to do without the formality of the hug circle. For others the hug circle seems silly like the couple where the man told us, he isn't interested in looking in the eyes of even his wife much less someone else's. We try and expose people to various options and no one has to participate in anything we suggest if they don't want to. But for most the hug circle is very enjoyable.

2) Massage is a wonderful way of sharing good strokes and can also be very lovingly intimate by the way it is done. That is why I enjoy Esalen massage so much and do a massage workshop in our Phoenix group. One of the best things we did was have massage tables at our parties which have become very popular for good intimate massage not just sexual massage. We also network with the Stroking Community so our couples have lots of opportunities for good strokes.

In an orgy room or just with a women alone, or with a couple, I enjoy combining some nice massage with more sensual and sexual sharing on a bed. Most women very much enjoy the combination. I'm always available for hands on sharing of ideas with any women! Doing is much easier than trying to describe it and other people have just as good or better ideas for good intimate sexuality I'm sure. I enjoy sharing different ideas with different people and finding out what women like.

3) We also share a video tape from the Lifestyles 93 convention of Stan Dale's intro workshop which is the only group I've found that teaches what I consider loving intimacy in a workshop setting. Stan Dale has encouraged us to use the tape. Stan and his wife Helen, are very supportive of Liberated Christians.

4) We also have parties where we encourage people to share intimacy with others but are also safe for those that just want more of a social time without having any pressure to be intimate or sexual.

5) For those that like to read I have written a number of extensive reports that are included in our intro package. Also all our material is now also on our web Cyber Center at which is just being announced.

Good loving touch is a basic key to intimacy.

For the next few minutes, while I talk more about simple touch, I'd like to ask you, if you are comfortable doing so, to just hold hands with the person on either side of you (one of which may be your partner and the other perhaps a stranger ). If you want to move around a bit to be boy-girl-boy girl that's fine or some may prefer holding hands with the same sex which is also just fine. If you are not comfortable doing so don't worry about it, that is OK. and the other person shouldn't take it as any form or rejection. But for those that are comfortable doing so, I invite you to just take the hand of the person on either side of you while I discuss touch.

Touch is the most powerful way to communicate empathy, friendship, approval, affirmation and love to another. This love can be the universal love we can feel for others, even if we don't really know them yet. Our inner spirits can nurture and share with each other most powerfully through caring touch.

Touch is Physically Beneficial - Touch messages are transmitted to our brain through a network of over 100 billion neurons. Once the brain receives the touch message, it has powerful effects, stimulating the production of chemicals that provide physical good feelings, as well as good emotions by releasing certain hormones and enzymes in the blood.

Touch can be important in developing a sense of community within a friendship group or church. But sometimes church's are more like "God's frozen people" since any signs of affection may be considered inappropriate for fear of sexuality.

With friends or even strangers in a trusted situation, practice breaking the touch barrier and together discover that healthy, wholesome touching can put you more in touch with humanity and yourself.

If you want more touch in your life, you must risk reaching out to touch. Sometimes you will be rejected, but the joy from the times when you can find another sincere toucher far outweigh the times of rejection. Be sensitive to the fact that some types of touch are more appropriate than others for new relationships or strangers. A touch to the arm can be a non threatening way to get a feel of the others comfort level.

More than 15 years ago, before any of my Stan Dale Workshop experiences my ex wife and I even had fun with touch with friends and family. Both of us enjoyed touch and both came from families that hardly ever showed any physical affection. She came from a large family with 2 brothers and three sisters who had married or had boyfriends. In family gatherings we got them to really start hugging and enjoying good touch which they had never done before. So my interest in good touch goes back a long time.

Another way of testing a persons reaction to my touch that I love to do is get my hands on a women's back and neck. Most of us have tight backs and necks that need good massage. Most men like to grab breasts, but I go for backs and necks! Sometimes a women melts in my hands turning into mush...and I'm happy to lie down and cuddle which is my favorite activity..especially nude even without having any sex.

Lets see how some of you are doing holding hands, especially with a relatively strange person. For many holding hands this long may be uncomfortable for some or very enjoyable for others. Many years ago my hands would have been cold and clammy since I would have been so nervous and self-conscious about having to hold hands with a stranger so long. You may continue holding hands or not depending on your comfort level.

The last topic I want to share is a little about sex education.
We try to help people with meaningful, adult sex education to dispel the ignorance that is so prevalent. There are many issues and techniques about which most adults know little or nothing, but which could help them to enhance their sexual experiences.

For example, our G-spot and women's ejaculation report brought a tremendous response from women who had no idea what these experiences were all about. A friend of mine, Michelle, is an ejaculator who expels a great deal of fluid when she comes, which I assure you is not urine.

Here is a sample letter we received regarding our G-spot report:
"Your article was helpful and interesting. I am one of the women who does ejaculate upon orgasm...when I first discovered this, I thought I had a bladder problem. My ob-gyn assured me that it was not my bladder but ejaculatory fluid. When I discovered my G-spot, it opened a whole new world for me sexually, and my sexuality took on a whole new meaning...Again, thank you for your information."

Women need to know they are perfectly normal and men need to be educated so they aren't shocked when they share sex with such a woman. Some of this basic sex education should be taught in high school and we'd have kids with much more knowledge and respect for each other.

Another interesting letter from a women in our group said:
"We've enjoyed receiving and reading the newsletters tremendously this summer. The bits about a gal's G-spot have been absolutely fantastic. We've read about and...(Joe) has been trying to find mine for over 20 years! Dave, the article in the last issue did it. He has been on the correct spot all these years, but has been giving it the same 'light touch' that he uses on my clitoris. Gad, since receiving the newsletter, he has been massaging my 'G' very firmly and has me popping my cookies repeatedly for 30 or 40 minutes every night. I'm multi-orgasmic with clitoris stimulation, but 'Katy Bar the Door'--nothing like those G-spot highs. Getting me so turned on with my 'G' has done wonders for (Joe). He is servicing me like some 20 year old gigolo. Thank you, thank you, thank you."

We also discuss male impotency issues and how normal it is as we age and possible aids for longer erection life. One women in our group never had fulfilling sex until she met a man who was impotent but knew how to please her far more than the typical male stud. She was willing to demonstrate soft entry techniques and other ideas for great sex with a soft penis.

Knowing more about sexuality by discussion and demonstration is not wrong or shameful. We can all learn and share ideas to give others maximum physical pleasure in an atmosphere of love, caring and respect.

I also have lots of experience with my Sybian machine both for helping some women have often times "best ever" orgasms". Or it can help less orgasmic women to become G spot sensitized. In my experience it works wonderfully for about 75% of women. We have an arrangement with Abco, the manufacturer, where we can sell it at a small discount and yes, we get a small referral fee that helps offset some of our financial costs in Liberated Christians.

That's the end of my sermon, but instead of standing to receive the benediction, lets open it up for questions or comments you may have.

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