PO Box 55045, Phoenix Az 85078-5045
Promoting Intimacy and Other-Centered Sexuality
COPYRIGHTED 1997 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED - MAY BE REPRINTED OR QUOTED
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"Swing Without Guilt or Jealousy"
Swing Convention Presentation
Welcome I'm Dave co-founder of Liberated Christians. If you aren't Christian don't
be scared away by our name, what I share relates to everyone. We won't do any baptisms,
speaking in tongues or pass an offering plate. I will do a 30 minute sermon about
false guilt (especially from Christian teachings) and many options I've seen work
for different couples to overcome jealousy. We should have time at the end for any
questions, or for you to share additional ideas. In another session___________ I'll
share ideas on how more physical intimacy can be much more fulfilling to many than
I tend to talk fast since I have lots to cover but slow me down if I get carried
away. I also try to have my brain engaged before putting my mouth in gear but by
gears sometime slip a bit.
Let me first define some terms as we use them. If you are a traditional swinger
most of our ideas will also relate to you, but I seldom use the term swinging, other
than in presentation title at swing conventions. Historically swinging is defined
as just physical recreational sex with little or no love or deeper emotional bonding.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with just lust and sex. Sharing body parts can
be fun. But within swinging there are also many people seeking something even more
meaningful then the great pleasure of thrusting sex and body parts.
At Liberated Christians, in our various workshops and newsletters, (which go to
about 3000 people around the world), our prime interest is not traditional swinging
but what I call "responsible non-monogamous loving relationships" or sometimes
called polyamous relationships. The only difference between traditional swinging
and this definition is the word "loving".
The "love" doesn't have to even involve a long-term commitment. I can
honestly love the spirit and soul of a person I've just met. If a women wants to
share sensual or sexual pleasure as two wonderful human souls for the moment it
can be very loving, even if its just for a one time pleasure sharing experience.
But some of us also want long-term lasting friendships that unlike most of our regular
friends, can also include wonderful sexual pleasure sharing.
"Responsible, particularly in the context of talking about responsible non-monogamy,
which includes swinging, has to do with responsibility to one's partners and to
agreements that one has with them, especially with your primary relationship. Responsible
means honestly in communications, not cheating as well as being responsible for
protecting against pregnancy or STD's. It means both being responsible for YOU to
say NO, if you don't want to do something and the responsibility to respect the
desires of your various partners.
In our Phoenix group, especially from our communications workshops one big benefit
for people exploring responsible, non-monogamy has been that it forces us into "conscious
relating" especially to our primary relationship or spouse, based on honesty
not just the usual "assumptive relationships". Too often in relationships,
little honest communication takes place about jealousy for example. This is because
these ideas are honestly challenged in a traditional monogamous relationships until
cheating occurs which is often devastating to the relationship. Open relationships
force couples to deal with these issues and be conscious of them instead of just
assuming the other will never have an interest in anyone else. Many couples tell
me, by dealing with these issues honestly, it has made their relationship much stronger.
There are two primary purposes of Liberated Christians.
The first is to share whether you happen to be Christian or not, how traditional
moral teaching has effectively limited not only our basic development as sexual
beings, but inhibited our natural desire to bond emotionally and sexually with more
than one person. These repressive ideas often create terrible guilt when we enter
a more open lifestyle.
Historically few cultures are monogamous unless forced on them by religion or insecure
male dictators. Time Magazine August 15, 1994 featured a very extensive article
titled "Infidelity - It may be in our genes", which confirms the unnaturalness
of trying to be monogamous.
Omni Magazine, September 1993, reported that of over 1500 cultures the vast majority
have either encouraged or at least tolerated polygyny - that is, the marrying of
several women by one man. High-status males have almost always had numerous wives
and lower status men the fewest.
Historically, many wives for each man has been a mark of male dominance in a culture
and is usually accompanied by the notion that women are property. In the modern
world such an idea may be a great male fantasy and ego trip. Having more than one
man for each women, however, is much more practical, since women's sexuality generally
has far more stamina and capacity than men's.
In Old Testament times, for 2000 year since Moses and the 10 commandments, adultery
was understood to be wrong only for a married woman, since this was a violation
of the husband's property rights. A married man could have as many wives and concubines
as he could afford, as long as the women were not the property of another man. Concubines
were often foreign women captured in battle and used as breeders for the man so
he could have many children and high status. The Bible never commands monogamy and
never spoke against nonmonogamy, or even having concubines. Stealing another MANS
property was the sin of adultery, not sex.
The adultery issue is best illustrated by a comment of a Rabbi at a swing club to
the husband of a woman he wanted to share with. He said, "I don't want to own
your wife, just borrow her.. and play with her." That is the real issue of
Christian adultery - borrowing the wife is fine, stealing her is a sin.
Today, unlike in biblical times, women have the same moral sexual freedom and options
that men have always had. We do not support the male-dominant biblical practice
which was simply reflecting the Hebrew culture. Rather, we speak up for the rights
of women to choose multiple partners with as great a freedom as men and to seek
what may be normal and fulfilling to both men and women.
Sex can offer so much more if we break the chains of our indoctrination of society
often based on false understanding of religious issues and understand that sex,
accompanied with caring intimacy, is beautiful in itself. Our culture's fears and
guilt over sexuality is expressed by many letters we receive from those who subscribe
to our newsletter and with whom we correspond on the Internet.
Here is just one of the many examples from a woman subscriber dealing with guilt:
"Dave and Bill--a special thanks straight from my heart.. .I have always known
that I am a very sexual female, but I have always felt guilt because of it. I have
had sex with many men that I love dearly and never once did I orgasms. For many
years I couldn't figure it out...I mean I LOVE making love...and it always felt
good... but I could never climax. Then a friend of mine told me it could be triggered
by the fact that deep in my heart I felt I was going to hell for having sex..therefore
no orgasm...So you see you helped me so much...no longer do I feel that I am a sinner
for being sexual with those I love! I know that I am just a human being and that
I have nothing to feel guilty about." Again that is just one example of many
similar responses we receive which is what motivates us to share ideas with more
and more people when we have the opportunity.
Because of the strong cultural influence, we support monogamy as the best option
for most people. But we also support, those that really desire "responsible
non-monogamous loving relationships" based on honesty and integrity.
We show that the basis for the traditional Christian moral teachings of sexual repression
have no biblical basis and are in fact contrary to Christ's teaching. We have many
ministers all over the world that support us speaking out for what they know is
true. But they have to be in the closet in fear of being fired from their ministries
if they spoke out against traditional teachings even when these teachings clearly
have no biblical basis..
Our second purpose is share ideas on loving intimacy, honest communications and
sexual pleasure sharing, especially women-centered sexuality which is so often neglected
in our sexually repressed, male dominated culture. I will discuss this much more
in our other presentation.
The response has been overwhelming from people all over the world hungry for the
biblical information and loving intimacy/sexuality ideas we try to share.
We are not a Church but we try to "minister" to three basic categories
First, those who still maintain a serious commitment to the Christian faith, but
who are troubled in conscience regarding their polyamory Lifestyle interests.
In addition to a vast amount of biblical research material, Our latest newsletter
on Christian poly groups encourages Christians around the world to STAND UP AND
WALK TALL and not be ashamed of your lifestyle choice.
Our current newsletter, also has a long article called SEXUAL FREEDOM, POLYAMORY
AND CHRISTIANITY: THE CASE FOR COMPATIBILITY" as well as many articles from
our local fellowship group newsletter about specific intimacy and communication
issues from our Phoenix group which might be helpful to others, whether Christian
The second category of people we seek to help are those who have had Christian experiences
in the past, but who have given up on Christianity for various reasons, including
the traditional opposition to their sexual/lifestyle interests. Many former Christians
find Eastern religious ideas such as those taught in the Tantra and the Tao which
embrace beautiful sexuality much more fulfilling than Christianity. We teach many
of the wonderful Tantra ideas but without the Hindu religious beliefs. Many have
tossed out Christianity for the wrong reasons in order to find more sexual fulfillment.
We help show that there is no conflict with biblical Christianity and a more open
loving lifestyle or Tantra sexual teachings that many are exploring.
The last group we try and share ideas with are those who have never had any particular
Christian background, but who have been negatively influenced regarding their sexuality
due to the dominance of Christian influence in the popular morality of our culture.
This morality has resulted in a culture full of tease and titillation and exploitation
of sexuality, but little really loving intimacy and a great deal of ignorance about
Many people, in every category, have guilt issues related to their sexuality. If
YOU don't you probably know someone who does.
To help overcome guilt issues you or someone you may know, needs to examine the
reasons for the guilt. You may find you have been wasting a great deal of energy
on guilt, especially if the result of Christian tradition, that has no legitimate
basis to start with.
Now lets move to the even more common issue of jealousy and various options people
find to deal with it.
The greatest fear we hear expressed by many couples considering the lifestyle is
that one partner will find someone "better" or will fall in love with
someone else. In workshops we do for new and hesitant couples, this is the predominant
concern, even more than either disease or morality issues.
Many couples enjoy seeing their mates enjoying sexual pleasure with someone else,
without jealousy or fear of loss. Many happily married, committed couples are opening
themselves up to finding others to be close friends and also open to exploring sexual
sharing to add variety to their already fulfilled sex lives. Just like they can
love more than just one child emotionally, many couples find they can sincerely
love other adults emotionally and sexually as people without loving their life partner
A common misconception is that if you seek intimacy with others there must be something
wrong with your present relationship. That is totally not true. Monogamy, no matter
how good the sex, in our opinion, doesn't provide for the basic natural human desire
to connect intimately and sexually with more than one person. Sharing loving sexuality
with others does not take away or mean something is wrong with your mate, but can
enhance an already great relationship. Many in our culture just don't get it, since
they fear loss and have been trained that love and exclusive sex are somehow dependent
on each other.
My idea of love is very simple: Wanting the best for the other. Love acknowledges
one's natural desire for variety. It has no room for jealousy or possessiveness
and does not demand exclusivity, no more than one of many children should demand
exclusive love from parents. But we are not perfect people and jealousy and possessiveness
will come up and needs to be discussed and shared honestly between partners.
Nonmonogamy can be dangerous to your relationship if not built on a firm foundation
of true love and honest communications. Open relationships magnify existing conditions
within a relationship. If trust, love, commitment and openness exist, then the relationship
is usually further strengthened. If, however, there is jealousy, insecurity and
lack of honest communications, these problems will be painfully magnified in an
open lifestyle. Working through these problems, however, in an open lifestyle, can
help all aspects of the relationship, since issues may come up that are never dealt
with otherwise. I've seen many examples of this happening and sometimes relationships
break up because of these issues. But that may even be good, since it uncovered
problems that may have eventually doomed the relationship anyway.
Women, typically but not always, are the most reluctant to explore open relationships.
However, once exposed to loving intimacy and perhaps sexual variety in safe, caring
groups, they often become the strongest supporters of the lifestyle. The joke in
swinging is that its the man who drags the woman into the lifestyle and also the
man who has to drag her away from the swing club. Often its the man who becomes
more possessive and jealous.
We have very much seen this in our groups. Some men just can't handle the intimacy
their partners experience with others, which creates jealousy in the men due to
their own insecurities. Many men are OK with swinging if its just recreational sex
with no emotional involvement, but many women, as well as myself, and some other
men, are more interested in emotional and physical intimacy, not just thrusting
sex. But such intimacy, whether for the moment or as part of a new, longer-term
relationship, doesn't have to take anything away from the prime relationship.
All these ideas about not having to be jealous sounds great in theory. But in practice
it is hard for many couples, especially those new to the lifestyle to overcome jealousy.
Traditionally many swingers try and avoid the issue by forming rules and barriers
to more real loving relationships. We support those who wish to look at swinging
only as recreational sex, even though that is not our interest.
As one traditional swing leader said in an article The Swinging Couple, "The
key to successful swinging is to remain "uninvolved" and to only have
a recreational sex, short-term attitude. You play the game, then disconnect and
go home with your primary partner. Swinging is not about personal sex, which is
what a couple have in their own, private, one-on-one relationship. It is instead,
about recreational friendly sex. Swinging is about protecting our relationships
not risking them. Approached as recreational activity there, is no more risk than
you find in a mixed bowling league or at a Saturday night card club... just far
more pleasure, excitement and stimulation." (end of quote) This idea is called
the Playcouple philosophy by the Lifestyles organization. It is not real relationships
but just playing. We totally support that if that is your choice or how you CHOOSE
to avoid jealousy.
But many of the couples that come to our group, want real relationships not play
relationships. But these relationships often raise more jealousy concerns than just
playing with others.
In our group we have had many discussions about these issues and couples fall into
different categories in dealing with jealousy.
One group of couples only share together as a couple in the same room. One example
is where a couple shared with a single male and while the two men had no physical
intimacy they had just as much of an emotional intimacy with each other, while intimately,
sexually pleasure sharing the women.
I've been involved in many threesome experiences where as men we work together sharing
intimacy and sexual sharing with one women. They key is friendship, trust and respect
between the men. Or, in a FFM situation the friendship between the two women is
Another way is for couples to be free to relate to whoever they wish separately
but done together, at the same time and in the same location although not necessarily
in the same bedroom. We have had lots of discussions on how hard it is to get 4
people (2 couples) to all like each other. For many breaking up the couple-centic
nature of traditional swinging and relating as people one-on-one is much more practical
than trying to find 4 people that all like each other.
Other couples want to share other activities together as couples, often including
children, in of course non-sexual activities just as friends.
I've also seen examples of couples that no longer have any jealousy issues and are
totally free to share with anyone they wish. The only agreement is they tell each
other where they will be for safety and so the other partners doesn't have to worry
about the other and can reach them if they need to. I saw a great example of that
when I was with one of the leaders of a convention in her hotel room. Her husband
just dropped in briefly to say hi and tell her he was going to be with a particular
women in her room. He was just checking in with her. They are experienced swingers
who trust each other, have a very stable loving relationship and have long overcome
any concerns of jealousy.
In other situations, I've seen women who go absolutely wild regarding their sexuality
and newfound freedom to fully enjoy it. For some men this is just too much to handle.
Another example of a couple in our group is where the husband, during their marriage,
has never been with anyone other than his wife but whose wife enjoys various sexual
partners. He honestly is totally comfortable with his wife seeking more variety,
even if he doesn't, as long as she is honest about it, not cheating, but tells him
where she is when she is out. The only issue for him is honestly, not his wife having
sex with other men.
I've also seen many examples where men truly love their wives but can't provide
the sexual stamina to keep up with them. They sincerely want their wife to be fulfilled
by other men. In a couple of cases due to diabetes or other physical problem the
man was impotent or nearly so. This is really great love where a man loves his wife
so much he wants her to be fulfilled when he can't and this of course deepens the
love of the wife for him. Other men just realize the fact that most women, especially
as we age, have more sexual stamina than most normal men can fully fulfill. That
is why MMF make much more sense than FFM.
We certainly don't have all the answers and sometimes exploring the lifestyle doesn't
work out as it is SUPPOSE to.
We had an example of exactly what is NOT suppose to happen. Two couples became very
close. One marriage was very sold the other rocky. The man in the rocky marriage
all of a sudden wants the women in the solid marriage to get a divorce and go to
Las Vegas for a quick marriage, totally ignoring the fact the women while enjoying
a non-monogamous relationship, had absolutely no interest in leaving her marriage.
In this case the sold marriage husband totally trusted his wife. The wife discontinued
her relationship with the man who really cheated by asking her to break up her solid
prime relationship. This is why many couples don't want to get involved with single
men, who may cling and get too emotionally attached without regard to the womans
solid prime relationship. In real life, relationships are very complex and you have
to be aware of the pitfalls but be absolutely committed to your prime relationship
so if such things occur they can be dealt with dignity and respect.
Often we have to take risks in how we relate in the lifestyle. We took a big risk
when we even decided to explore the lifestyle. STRETCHING you comfort zone results
in some pain but just like stretching a muscle the pain results in stronger muscles.
Stretching your comfort level in the lifestyle and discussing the issues with each
other, usually results is a much stronger prime relationship in addition to expanding
your love in sharing with others. Many couples have told us how just coming to our
workshops and being forced to deal with various issues has cemented their own relationship.
One of the best ways to deal with jealousy is simply forcing couples to answer difficult
questions and be responsible for their answers. For example in a recent communications
workshop in a smaller setting with 21 people, we encouraged, supported and discussed
for 4 hours just three simple questions. The simple questions were:
1. Where do you feel your relationship is going to be in 5 years, and where would
you like it to be?
2. What fears do you have with regards to personal intimacy (sexual and/or emotional)
with someone other than your partner?
3. What do you think your partner would feel is the greatest fear in sharing personal
intimacy outside your relationship?
First, we broke up partners based on whether they were the more dominant or passive
of the couple. That in itself got couples to discuss that topic with each other.
Then with 4 others that were not their partner they discussed the three questions.
Their answers were recorded on note cards.
When we rejoined in the larger group the couples exchanged cards with their partner.
Then every couple discussed their reaction in the group. In some cases it was a
risk. Especially with a MFF triad where the two women had very opposite expectations.
But while at times uncomfortable...those muscles hurt when they were stretched....the
result turned out to be very wonderful and strengthened the relationships between
partners as well as established a bond between the entire group. The support and
real love for each other was beautiful.
As one couple related, the choice was:
Hand closed...we are a couple and no one else will come in vs
Open hands....we welcome other warm loving spirits into our relationship because
our relationship is secure with love and honestly.
I am not trying to tell you one choice is better than the other. Different choices
may work at different times over the course of your relationship with your partner
as well as at different time or with different groups in the lifestyle.
I simply share different ideas that work for different people and hope you may find
some ideas to be helpful in your relationship and I encourage you to discuss with
your partner these issues. Or if you have long overcome these issues, some of these
ideas might help others you know deal with their issues of guilt or jealousy.
That's the end of my sermon, but instead of standing to receive the benediction,
lets open it up for questions or comments you may have.
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