Liberated Christians
PO Box 55045, Phoenix Az 85078-5045

Promoting Intimacy and Other-Centered Sexuality



COPYRIGHTED 1997 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED - MAY BE REPRINTED OR QUOTED FROM ONLY IF CREDIT IS GIVEN LIBERATED CHRISTIANS, MAILING ADDRESS IS SHOWN AND WE ARE SENT A COPY OF PUBLICATION.

"Swing Without Guilt or Jealousy" Swing Convention Presentation

Welcome I'm Dave co-founder of Liberated Christians. If you aren't Christian don't be scared away by our name, what I share relates to everyone. We won't do any baptisms, speaking in tongues or pass an offering plate. I will do a 30 minute sermon about false guilt (especially from Christian teachings) and many options I've seen work for different couples to overcome jealousy. We should have time at the end for any questions, or for you to share additional ideas. In another session___________ I'll share ideas on how more physical intimacy can be much more fulfilling to many than just sex.

I tend to talk fast since I have lots to cover but slow me down if I get carried away. I also try to have my brain engaged before putting my mouth in gear but by gears sometime slip a bit.

Let me first define some terms as we use them. If you are a traditional swinger most of our ideas will also relate to you, but I seldom use the term swinging, other than in presentation title at swing conventions. Historically swinging is defined as just physical recreational sex with little or no love or deeper emotional bonding. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just lust and sex. Sharing body parts can be fun. But within swinging there are also many people seeking something even more meaningful then the great pleasure of thrusting sex and body parts.

At Liberated Christians, in our various workshops and newsletters, (which go to about 3000 people around the world), our prime interest is not traditional swinging but what I call "responsible non-monogamous loving relationships" or sometimes called polyamous relationships. The only difference between traditional swinging and this definition is the word "loving".

The "love" doesn't have to even involve a long-term commitment. I can honestly love the spirit and soul of a person I've just met. If a women wants to share sensual or sexual pleasure as two wonderful human souls for the moment it can be very loving, even if its just for a one time pleasure sharing experience. But some of us also want long-term lasting friendships that unlike most of our regular friends, can also include wonderful sexual pleasure sharing.

"Responsible, particularly in the context of talking about responsible non-monogamy, which includes swinging, has to do with responsibility to one's partners and to agreements that one has with them, especially with your primary relationship. Responsible means honestly in communications, not cheating as well as being responsible for protecting against pregnancy or STD's. It means both being responsible for YOU to say NO, if you don't want to do something and the responsibility to respect the desires of your various partners.

In our Phoenix group, especially from our communications workshops one big benefit for people exploring responsible, non-monogamy has been that it forces us into "conscious relating" especially to our primary relationship or spouse, based on honesty not just the usual "assumptive relationships". Too often in relationships, little honest communication takes place about jealousy for example. This is because these ideas are honestly challenged in a traditional monogamous relationships until cheating occurs which is often devastating to the relationship. Open relationships force couples to deal with these issues and be conscious of them instead of just assuming the other will never have an interest in anyone else. Many couples tell me, by dealing with these issues honestly, it has made their relationship much stronger.

There are two primary purposes of Liberated Christians.
The first is to share whether you happen to be Christian or not, how traditional moral teaching has effectively limited not only our basic development as sexual beings, but inhibited our natural desire to bond emotionally and sexually with more than one person. These repressive ideas often create terrible guilt when we enter a more open lifestyle.

Historically few cultures are monogamous unless forced on them by religion or insecure male dictators. Time Magazine August 15, 1994 featured a very extensive article titled "Infidelity - It may be in our genes", which confirms the unnaturalness of trying to be monogamous.

Omni Magazine, September 1993, reported that of over 1500 cultures the vast majority have either encouraged or at least tolerated polygyny - that is, the marrying of several women by one man. High-status males have almost always had numerous wives and lower status men the fewest.

Historically, many wives for each man has been a mark of male dominance in a culture and is usually accompanied by the notion that women are property. In the modern world such an idea may be a great male fantasy and ego trip. Having more than one man for each women, however, is much more practical, since women's sexuality generally has far more stamina and capacity than men's.

In Old Testament times, for 2000 year since Moses and the 10 commandments, adultery was understood to be wrong only for a married woman, since this was a violation of the husband's property rights. A married man could have as many wives and concubines as he could afford, as long as the women were not the property of another man. Concubines were often foreign women captured in battle and used as breeders for the man so he could have many children and high status. The Bible never commands monogamy and never spoke against nonmonogamy, or even having concubines. Stealing another MANS property was the sin of adultery, not sex.

The adultery issue is best illustrated by a comment of a Rabbi at a swing club to the husband of a woman he wanted to share with. He said, "I don't want to own your wife, just borrow her.. and play with her." That is the real issue of Christian adultery - borrowing the wife is fine, stealing her is a sin.

Today, unlike in biblical times, women have the same moral sexual freedom and options that men have always had. We do not support the male-dominant biblical practice which was simply reflecting the Hebrew culture. Rather, we speak up for the rights of women to choose multiple partners with as great a freedom as men and to seek what may be normal and fulfilling to both men and women.

Sex can offer so much more if we break the chains of our indoctrination of society often based on false understanding of religious issues and understand that sex, accompanied with caring intimacy, is beautiful in itself. Our culture's fears and guilt over sexuality is expressed by many letters we receive from those who subscribe to our newsletter and with whom we correspond on the Internet.

Here is just one of the many examples from a woman subscriber dealing with guilt:
"Dave and Bill--a special thanks straight from my heart.. .I have always known that I am a very sexual female, but I have always felt guilt because of it. I have had sex with many men that I love dearly and never once did I orgasms. For many years I couldn't figure it out...I mean I LOVE making love...and it always felt good... but I could never climax. Then a friend of mine told me it could be triggered by the fact that deep in my heart I felt I was going to hell for having sex..therefore no orgasm...So you see you helped me so much...no longer do I feel that I am a sinner for being sexual with those I love! I know that I am just a human being and that I have nothing to feel guilty about." Again that is just one example of many similar responses we receive which is what motivates us to share ideas with more and more people when we have the opportunity.

Because of the strong cultural influence, we support monogamy as the best option for most people. But we also support, those that really desire "responsible non-monogamous loving relationships" based on honesty and integrity.

We show that the basis for the traditional Christian moral teachings of sexual repression have no biblical basis and are in fact contrary to Christ's teaching. We have many ministers all over the world that support us speaking out for what they know is true. But they have to be in the closet in fear of being fired from their ministries if they spoke out against traditional teachings even when these teachings clearly have no biblical basis..

Our second purpose is share ideas on loving intimacy, honest communications and sexual pleasure sharing, especially women-centered sexuality which is so often neglected in our sexually repressed, male dominated culture. I will discuss this much more in our other presentation.

The response has been overwhelming from people all over the world hungry for the biblical information and loving intimacy/sexuality ideas we try to share.

We are not a Church but we try to "minister" to three basic categories of people:

First, those who still maintain a serious commitment to the Christian faith, but who are troubled in conscience regarding their polyamory Lifestyle interests.

In addition to a vast amount of biblical research material, Our latest newsletter on Christian poly groups encourages Christians around the world to STAND UP AND WALK TALL and not be ashamed of your lifestyle choice.

Our current newsletter, also has a long article called SEXUAL FREEDOM, POLYAMORY AND CHRISTIANITY: THE CASE FOR COMPATIBILITY" as well as many articles from our local fellowship group newsletter about specific intimacy and communication issues from our Phoenix group which might be helpful to others, whether Christian or not.

The second category of people we seek to help are those who have had Christian experiences in the past, but who have given up on Christianity for various reasons, including the traditional opposition to their sexual/lifestyle interests. Many former Christians find Eastern religious ideas such as those taught in the Tantra and the Tao which embrace beautiful sexuality much more fulfilling than Christianity. We teach many of the wonderful Tantra ideas but without the Hindu religious beliefs. Many have tossed out Christianity for the wrong reasons in order to find more sexual fulfillment. We help show that there is no conflict with biblical Christianity and a more open loving lifestyle or Tantra sexual teachings that many are exploring.

The last group we try and share ideas with are those who have never had any particular Christian background, but who have been negatively influenced regarding their sexuality due to the dominance of Christian influence in the popular morality of our culture. This morality has resulted in a culture full of tease and titillation and exploitation of sexuality, but little really loving intimacy and a great deal of ignorance about women's sexuality.

Many people, in every category, have guilt issues related to their sexuality. If YOU don't you probably know someone who does.

To help overcome guilt issues you or someone you may know, needs to examine the reasons for the guilt. You may find you have been wasting a great deal of energy on guilt, especially if the result of Christian tradition, that has no legitimate basis to start with.

Now lets move to the even more common issue of jealousy and various options people find to deal with it.

The greatest fear we hear expressed by many couples considering the lifestyle is that one partner will find someone "better" or will fall in love with someone else. In workshops we do for new and hesitant couples, this is the predominant concern, even more than either disease or morality issues.

Many couples enjoy seeing their mates enjoying sexual pleasure with someone else, without jealousy or fear of loss. Many happily married, committed couples are opening themselves up to finding others to be close friends and also open to exploring sexual sharing to add variety to their already fulfilled sex lives. Just like they can love more than just one child emotionally, many couples find they can sincerely love other adults emotionally and sexually as people without loving their life partner any less.

A common misconception is that if you seek intimacy with others there must be something wrong with your present relationship. That is totally not true. Monogamy, no matter how good the sex, in our opinion, doesn't provide for the basic natural human desire to connect intimately and sexually with more than one person. Sharing loving sexuality with others does not take away or mean something is wrong with your mate, but can enhance an already great relationship. Many in our culture just don't get it, since they fear loss and have been trained that love and exclusive sex are somehow dependent on each other.

My idea of love is very simple: Wanting the best for the other. Love acknowledges one's natural desire for variety. It has no room for jealousy or possessiveness and does not demand exclusivity, no more than one of many children should demand exclusive love from parents. But we are not perfect people and jealousy and possessiveness will come up and needs to be discussed and shared honestly between partners.

Nonmonogamy can be dangerous to your relationship if not built on a firm foundation of true love and honest communications. Open relationships magnify existing conditions within a relationship. If trust, love, commitment and openness exist, then the relationship is usually further strengthened. If, however, there is jealousy, insecurity and lack of honest communications, these problems will be painfully magnified in an open lifestyle. Working through these problems, however, in an open lifestyle, can help all aspects of the relationship, since issues may come up that are never dealt with otherwise. I've seen many examples of this happening and sometimes relationships break up because of these issues. But that may even be good, since it uncovered problems that may have eventually doomed the relationship anyway.

Women, typically but not always, are the most reluctant to explore open relationships. However, once exposed to loving intimacy and perhaps sexual variety in safe, caring groups, they often become the strongest supporters of the lifestyle. The joke in swinging is that its the man who drags the woman into the lifestyle and also the man who has to drag her away from the swing club. Often its the man who becomes more possessive and jealous.

We have very much seen this in our groups. Some men just can't handle the intimacy their partners experience with others, which creates jealousy in the men due to their own insecurities. Many men are OK with swinging if its just recreational sex with no emotional involvement, but many women, as well as myself, and some other men, are more interested in emotional and physical intimacy, not just thrusting sex. But such intimacy, whether for the moment or as part of a new, longer-term relationship, doesn't have to take anything away from the prime relationship.

All these ideas about not having to be jealous sounds great in theory. But in practice it is hard for many couples, especially those new to the lifestyle to overcome jealousy.

Traditionally many swingers try and avoid the issue by forming rules and barriers to more real loving relationships. We support those who wish to look at swinging only as recreational sex, even though that is not our interest.

As one traditional swing leader said in an article The Swinging Couple, "The key to successful swinging is to remain "uninvolved" and to only have a recreational sex, short-term attitude. You play the game, then disconnect and go home with your primary partner. Swinging is not about personal sex, which is what a couple have in their own, private, one-on-one relationship. It is instead, about recreational friendly sex. Swinging is about protecting our relationships not risking them. Approached as recreational activity there, is no more risk than you find in a mixed bowling league or at a Saturday night card club... just far more pleasure, excitement and stimulation." (end of quote) This idea is called the Playcouple philosophy by the Lifestyles organization. It is not real relationships but just playing. We totally support that if that is your choice or how you CHOOSE to avoid jealousy.

But many of the couples that come to our group, want real relationships not play relationships. But these relationships often raise more jealousy concerns than just playing with others.

In our group we have had many discussions about these issues and couples fall into different categories in dealing with jealousy.

One group of couples only share together as a couple in the same room. One example is where a couple shared with a single male and while the two men had no physical intimacy they had just as much of an emotional intimacy with each other, while intimately, sexually pleasure sharing the women.

I've been involved in many threesome experiences where as men we work together sharing intimacy and sexual sharing with one women. They key is friendship, trust and respect between the men. Or, in a FFM situation the friendship between the two women is important..

Another way is for couples to be free to relate to whoever they wish separately but done together, at the same time and in the same location although not necessarily in the same bedroom. We have had lots of discussions on how hard it is to get 4 people (2 couples) to all like each other. For many breaking up the couple-centic nature of traditional swinging and relating as people one-on-one is much more practical than trying to find 4 people that all like each other.

Other couples want to share other activities together as couples, often including children, in of course non-sexual activities just as friends.

I've also seen examples of couples that no longer have any jealousy issues and are totally free to share with anyone they wish. The only agreement is they tell each other where they will be for safety and so the other partners doesn't have to worry about the other and can reach them if they need to. I saw a great example of that when I was with one of the leaders of a convention in her hotel room. Her husband just dropped in briefly to say hi and tell her he was going to be with a particular women in her room. He was just checking in with her. They are experienced swingers who trust each other, have a very stable loving relationship and have long overcome any concerns of jealousy.

In other situations, I've seen women who go absolutely wild regarding their sexuality and newfound freedom to fully enjoy it. For some men this is just too much to handle.

Another example of a couple in our group is where the husband, during their marriage, has never been with anyone other than his wife but whose wife enjoys various sexual partners. He honestly is totally comfortable with his wife seeking more variety, even if he doesn't, as long as she is honest about it, not cheating, but tells him where she is when she is out. The only issue for him is honestly, not his wife having sex with other men.

I've also seen many examples where men truly love their wives but can't provide the sexual stamina to keep up with them. They sincerely want their wife to be fulfilled by other men. In a couple of cases due to diabetes or other physical problem the man was impotent or nearly so. This is really great love where a man loves his wife so much he wants her to be fulfilled when he can't and this of course deepens the love of the wife for him. Other men just realize the fact that most women, especially as we age, have more sexual stamina than most normal men can fully fulfill. That is why MMF make much more sense than FFM.

We certainly don't have all the answers and sometimes exploring the lifestyle doesn't work out as it is SUPPOSE to.

We had an example of exactly what is NOT suppose to happen. Two couples became very close. One marriage was very sold the other rocky. The man in the rocky marriage all of a sudden wants the women in the solid marriage to get a divorce and go to Las Vegas for a quick marriage, totally ignoring the fact the women while enjoying a non-monogamous relationship, had absolutely no interest in leaving her marriage. In this case the sold marriage husband totally trusted his wife. The wife discontinued her relationship with the man who really cheated by asking her to break up her solid prime relationship. This is why many couples don't want to get involved with single men, who may cling and get too emotionally attached without regard to the womans solid prime relationship. In real life, relationships are very complex and you have to be aware of the pitfalls but be absolutely committed to your prime relationship so if such things occur they can be dealt with dignity and respect.

Often we have to take risks in how we relate in the lifestyle. We took a big risk when we even decided to explore the lifestyle. STRETCHING you comfort zone results in some pain but just like stretching a muscle the pain results in stronger muscles. Stretching your comfort level in the lifestyle and discussing the issues with each other, usually results is a much stronger prime relationship in addition to expanding your love in sharing with others. Many couples have told us how just coming to our workshops and being forced to deal with various issues has cemented their own relationship.

One of the best ways to deal with jealousy is simply forcing couples to answer difficult questions and be responsible for their answers. For example in a recent communications workshop in a smaller setting with 21 people, we encouraged, supported and discussed for 4 hours just three simple questions. The simple questions were:

1. Where do you feel your relationship is going to be in 5 years, and where would you like it to be?

2. What fears do you have with regards to personal intimacy (sexual and/or emotional) with someone other than your partner?

3. What do you think your partner would feel is the greatest fear in sharing personal intimacy outside your relationship?

First, we broke up partners based on whether they were the more dominant or passive of the couple. That in itself got couples to discuss that topic with each other. Then with 4 others that were not their partner they discussed the three questions. Their answers were recorded on note cards.

When we rejoined in the larger group the couples exchanged cards with their partner. Then every couple discussed their reaction in the group. In some cases it was a risk. Especially with a MFF triad where the two women had very opposite expectations. But while at times uncomfortable...those muscles hurt when they were stretched....the result turned out to be very wonderful and strengthened the relationships between partners as well as established a bond between the entire group. The support and real love for each other was beautiful.

As one couple related, the choice was:

Hand closed...we are a couple and no one else will come in vs
Open hands....we welcome other warm loving spirits into our relationship because our relationship is secure with love and honestly.

I am not trying to tell you one choice is better than the other. Different choices may work at different times over the course of your relationship with your partner as well as at different time or with different groups in the lifestyle.

I simply share different ideas that work for different people and hope you may find some ideas to be helpful in your relationship and I encourage you to discuss with your partner these issues. Or if you have long overcome these issues, some of these ideas might help others you know deal with their issues of guilt or jealousy.

That's the end of my sermon, but instead of standing to receive the benediction, lets open it up for questions or comments you may have.



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E-MAIL: dave@davephx.com