Liberated Christians
PO Box 55045, Phoenix AZ 85078-5045

Promoting Intimacy and Other-Centered Sexuality


COPYRIGHTED 1997 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

Experiences Of Christian MINISTERS
Dealing With Sexual/Poly/Swing Issues
And few other short articles of interest

The purpose of Liberated Christians is not to just publish newsletters and have a nice web site. Our goal is to help real people, especially Christians deal with the issues. Sometimes sharing real experiences instead of theological or philosophical theories can be the best motivation and help to others. Therefore, we publish without any identifying information some of the hundreds of letters and E-mails we receive in hopes by sharing real life experiences of others it can help a wider range of people than just our "preaching" and teaching via newsletters and materials on the web site. We publish some letters that are very positive about us, not to gloat, but to help others realize that there are many Christians struggling with these issues and encourage you that other Christians are finding a great deal of relief when they realize the truth regarding biblical sexuality.

To protect privacy no identifying personal information or last names will ever be revealed unless
permission is given.

Dave's Note: We get so many letters from ministers thanking us for exposing the biblical truths about sexuality since they have to remain in the closet or risk their jobs. Tradition has totally bent what the original scriptures said, and those with theological backgrounds often understand this much more so than the typical "lay" person sitting in the pew who just assumes the preacher is preaching correct teachings. Regarding sexuality issues they are actually preaching tradition, which is very different from what the scriptures actually meant in the culture in which they were written. This is just a few of the letters we get from practicing Christian ministers

One article from a past newsletter was especially helpful. It was called The "Wicked-For-A- Week" Adventure Of A Modern Evangelical Pastor At Hedonism II, Negril Jamaica by John Jacob Hillman, Ph.D., which is a pseudonym for a pastor of a conservative evangelical church in the mid south region of the US.
John starts out saying:

The pressure of life and ministry can be immense at times. As a pastor of an evangelical conservative church for the past twenty years the pressure became even greater as my wife and I began to understand more and more of the liberty we have in Christ. We have always enjoyed each other and as we have grown in the Word we have come to see sex as a wonderful gift from God. Yet we realize few other Christians see it this way. We longed for a get away. We longed to go to a place where the legalisms, the Victorian attitudes, and the judging so often found within our faith could be left behind. We found it at Hedonism II on the beautiful island of Jamaica.

The rest of the article can be found at: http://www.libchrist.com/christiansin/wicked.html

Greetings Dave!

It has been a long time since I sent off a note. In fact it has been a long time since I have had time to read your News Letters that come by e-mail. I pastor a very large church and the politics alone are about to kill me. When I ask the question: "Would Jesus have anything to do with most of these people?" my answer is: "probably not." Not because they are sinners; but because they believe they are the righteous ones with all the truth, as the Pharisees did.

So enough about that. I thought I would give you a little update about my experience. Recently my wife and I went on a vacation and decided, since we were thousands of miles from home, to go to an "off premises" swingers club. We have never done this before, and have been faithfully married for almost 20 years.

We went for a couple of hours and met some of the nicest, most honest, open people we have known in years. In the church you are always wondering what the meaning is behind something said, or if this person has some hidden agenda. In the Swing club the people were honest and sincere. They didn't have to BS about who they were or why they were there, everyone knew, and it was one of the most accepting wholesome environments I have ever been in. As I have told you before, I graduated from one of the most prestigious seminaries in the mid-west, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and even their, the attitudes were so competitive and elitist that you didn't dare share who you really were, or you could be labeled spiritually immature and wouldn't get the grades or receive the recommendations for the big well paying church positions.

Until my experience at the Swing club, as you know, I wouldn't even mention where I had graduated from seminary in my post, for fear that your organization might be part of the "morals-thought police" on the NET who seem to dominate anything with the word Christian in its name. Now I am opening up more and being less fearful and more honest with myself and God. I still at times worry that this will eventually cause me to be ex-communicated; but I am beginning to feel the stir of the same Spirit which led Martin Luther to write his 95 theses and post them on the door at Wittenburg. As the Holy Spirit has revealed more of the loving nature of God from the Old Testament to the New Testament and then progressively throughout time leading God's people to a fuller understanding of the "law of love", as the true foundation, and the final measure of what can be defined as "godly"; I now see that it is time for the next Reformation. May God give us the faith, courage, and character to usher in this new era of revealed grace.

Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

P.S. Please don't use my name or location if you quote me. I am still growing toward full liberation.

Greetings--

We are VERY grateful for the liberated Christians web site.

We are an ordained clergy couple in two major mainstream Christian denominations. We are also very joyful in our mutual discovery of ourselves as mates and sexual beings. The trust and honesty of our relationship is leading us far beyond the rigid bounds of church morality. And yet we feel faithfully called to do the work of our vocations in service to others. So, it's a very narrow line we walk. Your pages have helped us know that we are not alone. And we agree completely with your philosophy, your biblical interpretation, your theology, and your intent.

May God richly bless your work.

Thanks for the information, read it and loved it.

As we said before we have been in the ministry for 12 years, both Ordained and S. Pastors for 5. We resigned last April for various reasons which I'm sure you've heard before. Have served under Calvary Chapel, and the Vinyard Denominations. Having 2 years seminary, B.S. in Psych. We are both now counselors for the State. As you know we enjoy freedom in our marriage, and would love to be connected to some other people. Would also like to attend a meeting in Phx.

God's peace,

xxxxxxx and xxxxxx

Hello,

We are EX-Pastors of a large Non-denominational church and we are sexually open. Have done years of study in the area of sexuality and its freedom in Scripture,in both Hebrew and the classical Greek. We are very glad of These writings, I hope people will read and learn.  We would love to be on your News Letter e-mail list.

In response to "Wicked Week Of Evangelical Minister"
Thank you so much for your newsletter and other items you sent me. I especially enjoyed the "Wicked Week of Evangelical Pastor". I too am an ordained minister in a very conservative denomination. I have watched many fellow pastors be dismissed for holding the views expressed in your newsletter. I think that is a shame, but its reality... I Would you please forward my E-mail address to the pastor who went on the wicked week. I really would like to talk to a colleague of like mind. Needless to say, there is no one else I can talk to about sexuality, that is except my wife.

Another:
Thank you for publishing that wonderful short article from the "evangelical pastor" from the mid-south regarding their experiences at Hedonism II and with a more open sensual and sexual orientation. How refreshing and encouraging to learn of other thoughtful genuine believers who love God and have discovered the truth and beauty and joy of more open sensual relationships. We often marvel at what the Lord has allowed us to experience and his wonderful affirmation of this discovery, in so many ways. Like that pastor, we are quite visible in our community and families, and our discoveries and experiences would not be understood or well received by most others we care for and fellowship with...We're leaving this Saturday for our second stay at Hed II.

From "Wicked For A Week" Pastor discussing teaching biblical classes says:
...had about six young couples ask me all kinds of questions after class. When I made the statement that I could not see a biblical prohibition against non monogamous marriages they commended me for my biblical honestly and really seem to appreciate the fact that I was not trying to bring current cultural morality into spirituality. Seems that age group of Christians, the 20s to early 30s crowd, are much more open to the truth and an honest look at the Scriptures than the older generation. Guess they don't call them generation X for no reason!

Catholic Bishop Supporting Sexual Freedom
Our friend from San Diego, Free Catholic Bishop Thomas Clary, is an outstanding resource both on Catholicism and sexuality. Bishop Clary is outspoken on being non-judgmental and condemning of any lifestyles. He strongly believes and advocates among Free Catholics that one's individual conscience is primary in determining right or wrong or appropriateness or inappropriateness.

A Bishop of the Free Catholic Church, he has been highly supportive of our more liberal approach to sexuality. He is not only as a Catholic Bishop, but he also is a Certified Sex Therapist, Diplomate and Clinical Supervisor of the American Board of Sexology, as well as a Fellow in the American Academy of Clinical Sexologists. He has been president of a large city's Mental Health Counselors Association. As a professional sexologist. he knows the terrible results of the shame and repression of natural sexuality. As a sincere Catholic Bishop, he also respects the Church and its teachings but has the freedom to integrate his positive sexual attitudes with Catholicism. See web site at http://www.freecatholic.org  or The Free Catholic Church, P.O. Box 1439, La Jolla, CA 92038-1439 or phone 619-459-4277.

The Free Catholic Church is an autonomous Catholic Church. Its bishops trace their Apostolic lineage from the Petrine succession though those bishops under the Archbishop of Rheims, who left the Roman Catholic Church objecting to the false teaching of papal infallibility.

Dear Dave - I just came across your May/June Newsletter on the Internet. I think what you are saying is 100% right-on and true. I have been a Christian for many years and went through the whole "born-again" movement and 700 Club scene. While I am very thankful for those foundational events, which brought me into a loving experience with God through Jesus Christ, I must say that they kept me at a baby Christian, 'professional weaker brother," level.

I now have a Masters of Divinity degree from a highly respected evangelical seminary. I too concur, with what I read in your May June newsletter about the hermenutical, historical and political issues which have shaped our understanding of what God desires for us.

As I read your newsletter, I was struck with one of those serendipitous "ah-ha' feelings. I have a sense, at a very deep level, that God is calling me to make the truth about this issue known..

The challenge is where do I go from here without being shot by those who have been indoctrinated by teachings which do not have the Holy Spirit as their source. Where do I start? Is it possible to contribute to this dialog and stay anonymous? I live in........... where there are many who need to hear this message to save their own marriages, and to heal old wounds which keep them trapped from enjoying their future in Christ.... Thank you for your ministry.

(Dave's notes: Bill and I have been in contact with this person who so wants to speak out like us yet risks being ostracized if his true views were known. We are in contact with another minister of a Bible Church in the South, whose books are in Christian bookstores, but has to keep his true feelings about sexual issues in the closet or risk being fired from his denomination. He and his wife had their first swing experience at a soft-swing club in California as they were afraid to go anywhere close to home. We hear from so many with theological degrees that know what we say about Christian sexuality is true but have to be in the closet since the traditional repressive view is so embraced by traditional denominations.)

ARTICLES ABOUT MINISTERS
Garner Ted Armstrong Sexual Repression Too Much
Yet another fundamentalist minister who teaches sexual repression is accused of sexual misconduct. Television evangelist Garner Ted Armstrong has stepped down as head of the Worldwide Church of God amid allegations that he sexually assaulted a massage therapist. Massage therapist Suerae Robertson claims in a lawsuit Armstrong made a series of lewd requests, fondled himself, grabbed her breasts and genitals and tired to bite her breasts saying he needed "some relief." He then tried to force her to perform oral sex on him. She broke free and fled the room. Due to an earlier encounter with Armstrong she had secretly videotaped the session at the suggestion of a private investigator. Of course Armstrong said the allegations are "totally false," but resigned in fear of the negative press coverage.An

Minister's letter
"Finally, after 60 years, I find a group that reflects my own feelings - that one can be a good Christian and also have a joyous and fulfilling sex life (other than just with wife). I was beginning to feel that I was the only 'weirdo' left. But, of course, I am feeble-minded from 'playing with myself' at an early age." He tells of his becoming a minister after reared in a very fundamentalist belief that anything "fun" was bad - especially if it was sexual fun.

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